Author Topic: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?  (Read 2462 times)

posaune

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2016, 11:12:33 PM »
I have the 22 ed. for dres and blouse it is from 1996, the 23. ed for trouser and skirts same year.  As my older trouser book is in repair I can't look what the edition Number is.
If you need some help just ask.
lg
posaune

Futura

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2016, 11:15:54 AM »
posaune, thank you for all of your help. No doubt I will have many questions once I receive the books. ;)

Now I am curious if those editions were ever offset in number. I wonder if the 20th edition for blouses & dresses was published the same time as the 21st edition for skirts & pants? I see booksellers listing years, but I don't know where they are getting those numbers from. It would be very interesting to catalog the Mueller book editions with roughly accurate dates.

Is it true that the 20th edition corrected a mistake in proportions for the front length? (http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2531)

posaune

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2016, 02:59:20 AM »
It is very possible that they where edited the same time. As far as I know:
It was once 1 book: Dresses, blouses skirts overcoats, coats and pants.
In the 6. edition they deleted the dresses and blouses. So the ladies tailors were very angry and  they did a 7th edition with dresses and blouses. From then on 2 volumes. The tailors - who did ladies costumes - where now satisfied and the ladies tailors too. In german there is tailor (Schneider) and tailor"ess" (Schneiderin)and believe me tailor"esses" where regarded inferior from their colleagues.
1954 was the 10th edition printed. Only 2 volumes. I do not know when they start printing 3 volumes: the trouser and skirt.

The Frontlength: it is already cleared in ed. 20. The calculation for the frontlength is now depending on bust circ. It is
 backlength + 4(to 6 cm (depending on bust) ) + a special number (Uebermass = depending too on bust).
So Zuschneider is not right saying it was only 2 cm to short - it was more.
But as a ladies tailor you measure the front length and you compare it with the proportional measures because it is there are a lot of different bust circ around. You only draft with proportional measures when you are not sure why you have other numbers. So you can start the alterations easier from a standard.
lg
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jruley

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2016, 07:10:03 AM »

 In german there is tailor (Schneider) and tailor"ess" (Schneiderin)and believe me tailor"esses" where regarded inferior from their colleagues.



Not to derail the thread, but this is interesting.  In English, I believe "tailoress" referred to a woman who made men's clothing; i.e. a woman practicing the same trade as a male tailor.  A woman making ladies' clothes was termed "dressmaker". 

So is it different in German?  The Schneiderin makes ladies' clothing?  So what is the German term for a man who makes women's clothing, or a woman who makes for men?

jeffrey

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2016, 07:48:54 AM »
This is not vintage and you may not be interested but this seems like it would be a pretty good all around book to have in your library.
http://www.muellersohn.com/fachbuecher/vom-modellschnitt-zur-produktionsreifen-schablone

posaune

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2016, 09:29:55 AM »
Yes, it was a gender thing, Jim. (Do you say so? And tailoress as word exists??). A woman did not make men's clothes till high in the 60th. Only shirts and such stuff.
The Schneider (man) made suits (jacket and skirt) and overcoats for women but no dresses or blouses. Or shall we say clothing which was formed with the iron was work for the Schneider? If he did dresses he was called Modeschoepfer like Dior or Uli Richter who celebrated his 90 th birthday this week  or french: couturier
https://www.google.de/search?q=uli+richter+berlin&client=firefox-b-ab&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVgJKdzODQAhXGWSwKHWVpBv4QsAQINw&biw=1525&bih=674&dpr=0.9
Nowadays the apprenticeship and exam for a Schneiderin (woman) (can) include the making of men's clothing or only men's. And vice versa (I hope).

Jeffrey, I think, this book is advanced.  It shows how to prepare patterns for selling, be it for the industry or for fashion journals.
I look forward to Christmas (hint for my husband) hehe.
lg
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jruley

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2016, 12:12:48 PM »

(Do you say so? And tailoress as word exists??).


From Noah Webster's 1857 "An American Dictionary of the English Language; etc." which may be found on Google Books:

https://books.google.com/books?id=V_8YAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR3&dq=dictionary&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzyMbE7-DQAhVIKiYKHZ_CAro4KBDoAQguMAI#v=onepage&q=dictionary&f=false

Quote
Tailor, n. {Fr. tailleur.}  One whose occupation is to cut out and make men's garments.
Tailor, v.i.  To practice making men's clothes.
Tailoress, n.  A female who makes garments for men. (emphasis added)

I also found "tailoress" in a number of period magazine articles, and a number of entries in period business directories.

With modern attitudes about gender neutrality, I expect most English-speaking women who practice tailoring today call themselves "tailor" rather than "tailoress", just as female pilots use "aviator" instead of "aviatrix".  The word "seamstress", however, is still used widely.  A man who sews, but is not a tailor, should be called "seamster" but the modern term seems to be "sewer".  The problem is "sewer" (pronounced differently) also means a wastewater channel...

posaune

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2016, 08:49:17 PM »
Thanks, Jim.
Not knowing how to pronounce it right hehehe
The problem is "sewer" (pronounced differently) also means a wastewater channel...
this made my day!
lg
posaune
In german if correct you use the professional title "Schneider and Schneiderin" every time - which is quite long. Some shorten it to Schneider/Innen. Equally awfull.

peterle

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2016, 09:37:32 PM »
A menīs tailor had to handle a limited range of fabrics(mainly woolens) and a limited range of patterns. This heavy  materials demanded a different working like heavy ironwork and hair canvas inner structures. Also women liked these kind of outfit and so menīs tailors did the so called "Schneiderkostuem" = tailorīs costume also for women  when it became fashionable. Of course the Damenschneiderinnen=ladies tailors, who always have been used to work with a much wider range of fabrics and a much more creative and undocmatic approach to patterns,  quickly extended their techniques to make a tailorīs costume.

Iīve also read that tailoring was not a job for women because handling the irons was considered too heavy for a women. Doesnīt take me wonders when I look at this wich is 7,8 Kilos: https://www.willhaben.at/iad/kaufen-und-verkaufen/d/altes-schneider-buegeleisen-60-euro-183966344/

Futura

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2016, 04:09:06 AM »
In regards to terminology, that is an interesting question. I wish I could have asked my grandmother as she worked for a tailor in Germany a long time ago, but I do not know what work she did specifically or what the position was called. I will ask around next time I speak to relatives.

(I do regularly make the mistake of writing "sewer" but fortunately haven't embarrassed myself as of yet! ;) )

On a different note, I'm pleased to announce that I received the 20th and 21st editions of the Mueller textbooks this morning! Almost better yet, I've tested photographing pages, uploading them to an online OCR webpage, and from that using an online translator. Not perfect, but through my own understanding in combination with both forums I could easily follow along.

Most exciting...!

Futura

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2016, 04:17:28 AM »
The word "seamstress", however, is still used widely.

Oftentimes it seems the word "seamstress" implies a woman who mainly does alterations or clothing manufacturing, without any input in design.

Locally the word "tailor" seems to be confused with the roles of seamstress and dressmaker...!

hutch--

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2016, 01:18:29 AM »
The terminology seems to vary from one place to another. In OZ the guys are tailors, the ladies can be tailors, dressmakers or seamstresses and the term "machinist" can be either men or women. I have known a number of ladies who could make men and women's suits, shirts, bridal wear, stretchwear, swimsuits, sportswear and the list goes on and on. Long ago there used to be "sweatshops" here when the rag trade was in full swing before the market was flooded out with Chinese imports and most of the folks doing the sewing were women of migrant origin working for appallingly low wages or doing outwork at home for even less.

Most of the ladies I knew worked for themselves and made specialised garments for unusual customers.
The magnificent tools of the professional tailor
http://www.movsd.com/tailors_shears/  ;) ;D

Schneiderfrei

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2016, 01:13:26 PM »
Add to that now impossibly cheap Bangladeshi imports.