Author Topic: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?  (Read 2505 times)

posaune

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2016, 01:56:14 AM »
Old mueller books are not easy to get and they are not cheap. I wish you luck.
lg
posaune
Schneiderfrei has given some Mueller pdf's from the 50er on this page.

Futura

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2016, 02:51:54 AM »
Thanks Posaune, I had looked in the past but couldn't find a thing! Will need all the luck I can get. ;)

Might you have any recommendations for books (or other sources) on drafting women's clothing, dating from around the 1970's?

Futura

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2016, 12:25:46 PM »
Hmm, have found several old Muller & Sohn books for sale, but they all date from the 50's and 60's. Is there a reason why there are not any from the 70's? I assume the title would have been the same.

I think I am done with wading through typos - I need to study from a better system! It is impossible to decipher any true meaning when there is no clear standard of what the presumed proportionate figure actually is. Any suggestions or recommendations would be very much appreciated! :)

Sometimes I wonder if I simply am hung up on millimeter discrepancies, and the method is actually useable... (That still would not account for the utter lack of discussion on ease and appropriate waist reduction ;) )

Schneiderfrei

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2016, 08:19:49 PM »
Do you find a lot of typos in the old Mueller books too?  Some of the new stuff has unforgivable errors as well.

posaune

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2016, 09:39:12 PM »
Futura,
I have some editions of Mueller.
The last - I think - is the 21. edition, printed 1993. (Dresses and blouses) Coats and jackets - there is a newer one.
It is very straightforward and very generally held. Not going into the different fashion stuff.

I have the 20. ed. too, bought in the 80ies. A very good one. And I think this books are all in use and nobody want to part with them.
Between these 2 is a huge gap. The 20.ed is done more for the custom tailor (like all the older ed.s)  the 21 is leaning more to the industry. Understandable because it is the need of the reader and how the young tailors are educated nowaday. No use to close the eyes.
I like the old ed.s  because they talk about a lot of stuff, which is now nearly forgotten. But they changed over the years some systematic drafting;  example: deriving the bust dart width and other stuff.

If you went for: Hofenbitzer, Bekleidung,  Schnittkonstruktion in der Damenmode. You'll get skirts, Trousers, bluoses and Dresses, Jackets all in one book . Modern - but the drafting is done very basic - without much going into fashion
here an excerpt
www.europa-lehrmittel.de/downloads-leseproben/62369-1/519.pdf/
or there were some typhos in the first edition so they put the right thing in the net. Good to see how it works:
www.europa-lehrmittel.de/downloads-downloads/32/62369_1_korr.pdf/
you can see what you are choosing. It is surprisingly cheap. The drafting is nearly the same as Mueller.
If you want other systems there are many around.
lg
posaune

Futura

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2016, 12:36:13 AM »
Thank you so much for the information Posaune - I do genuinely appreciate it.

As for the Müller & Sohn books, I suspected they are being held onto! I will have a closer look at the Schnittkonstruktion in der Damenmode book.

I find the custom tailor mindset to be more useful than modern industry standards, for my own purposes. I can understand how the older books would contain different information than the modern editions. On the home sewing side of things, I have seen entire chapters erased in what was supposedly the same book over 40 years. Probably to reduce do-it-yourself knowledge, thus forcing individuals to buy more commercial sewing patterns...

I can find the following Müller & Sohn books for sale online:
Schnittechnik der Damenbekleidung - Konstruktionen für Röcke und Hosen (dated 1975)

Schnittechnik der Damenbekleidung - Konstruktionen für Blusen und Kleider (listed as 1970, but the cover typeface looks more recent...?)

There are copies available of Der Zuschnitt für die Damenschneiderei, dated 1961 and 1962 at the latest. I cannot find any editions later than this.

I do very much like the lines of the 1970's styles. Maybe I am limiting myself too much in terms of sourcing decent textbooks? I can however, find numerous Rundschau issues from the 70's.

I understand enough of drafting to follow along reasonable well, at least in principle. From this forum (and the Cutter and Tailor one), I can manage to blunder my way through the German drafts. Alas, I wish I continued my language studies in school...! I imagine this is where also having a modern English translation of Müller & Sohn could be invaluable.

posaune

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2016, 01:38:07 AM »
You must look at the edition no.  Mueller has only recently add the date.  the 75 must be ed. 20 or 19. The covers look oldfashioned. New were done in the 90 th
Inside the Rundschau journals, you'll find sometimes a basic draft but many drafts of fashion. They always start with the "Grundschnitt" (basic pattern) and show you what you have to do to get the look. There are explainations why and how.  The basic draft changes now and then. Remember the 80ties with the large armholes and shoulder pads?  Great change in the draft. There was no book it was only in the journals. In the 90ties it was all turned back to get a close fitted Grundschnitt. This is done till now. (21 ed.)
As far as I know the  coat and jacket  and the dress blouse book (as CD) are avaible in english.

Good hunt
lg
posaune


Futura

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2016, 02:19:25 AM »
Thanks, I guessed it would be edition 19 or 20. :)

Half of the listings I've been able to find for Müller & Sohn books only state a year. I am not sure why they don't have an edition, or where they are getting the date from

These are the two that claim to be 70's:

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=&tn=konstruktionen%20fur%20blusen%20kleider%20system%20muller&n=100121503&cm_sp=mbc-_-ats-_-used

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=16556422008&cm_sp=collections-_-3bWED4rMCgMamPGGrXAz9e_item_1_4-_-bdp

What is the difference in content between the above books and the Der Zuschnitt für die Damenschneiderei ones?

Yes, I definitely can imagine the basic draft being different for the 1980's! So over the decades did the basic pattern only change inside the journals, not the actual books? I wonder what would be the best way to proceed. I am tempted by the Rundschau copies I found...

It looks like there are English translated books/PDFs available for the modern dresses & blouses, skirts & pants, and jackets & coats books.

posaune

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2016, 04:38:35 AM »
Yes, that is ed. 20. Very good in my opinion for a custom tailor. And not too expensive. First is dresses + Blouses (including some skirts) 2. is trousersand skirts.
Der Zuschnitt für die Damenschneiderei is just the first title. There are 3 subtitle 1.) dresses, blouses 2. Trousers, skirts 3. Coats and Overcoats.
The draft is so that you can do dolman, kimono, raglan, without changing much.
But the fashionstyle is more about end of the 60er.
lg
posaune

Futura

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2016, 07:57:13 AM »
Ah yes, I forgot to include the subtitles. :) I meant to ask the difference in content between, say, Der Zuschnitt für die Damenschneiderei - Blusen, Kleider und Wäsche and Schnittechnik der Damenbekleidung - Konstruktionen für Blusen und Kleider.

Would the two books for sale on blouses & dresses and trousers & skirts show how to do a basic pattern? I ask as I cannot find any photos inside these particular editions.

Thanks as always!

Futura

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2016, 08:07:38 AM »
Do you find a lot of typos in the old Mueller books too?  Some of the new stuff has unforgivable errors as well.

I have not had the pleasure of trying out any of the Mueller drafts yet myself.

I do wonder if there is a mistake or omission in my copy of Natalie Bray's Dress Design. The logic for determining the scye depth seems incorrect.

posaune

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2016, 08:19:59 AM »
https://twitter.com/yacurama 
if you look under 19. november, you'll see a part of the book, 20. ed. You have the basic and they show you how to alter for a "Drachenkeil Kimono" or 2 pics later how to do the asymmetric dress with the collar.
After measuring instructions they show in details the basic draft.  Severall dart rotations, straight form, A-Line a.s.o. So you have the basic for every style you want to do. Then some detailed styles from Dirndl to evening wear.
Blouses basics and styles. Vests and some skirts. After this collars, collars.
Next chapter is all sort of sleeves. Then going in detail for different body forms. They show how to do pattern for the industry, some garments for girls and for pregnant ladies. In older books they have wäsche (means night gowns pyamas and men's shirt).
the books with  title "Schnittechnik..... are younger, the others are older. Because the industrial production takes a toll now. Zuschnitt is more custom tailor, Schnittechnik more industrial
lg
posaune

Futura

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2016, 08:38:15 AM »
Most excellent! Thank you for that :) I will order those books tonight.

I imagine that the Rundschau issues would contain additional fashions different from those in the books?

Schnittechnik..... are younger, the others are older. Because the industrial production takes a toll now. Zuschnitt is more custom tailor, Schnittechnik more industrial

That is exactly what I was wondering - my suspicions were correct. What was the last Zuschnitt edition published? How often did they publish new editions of either?

Do you think it would be worth having the modern English translations as well? (Christmas is coming up so I have an excuse for a longer wish list ;) )

posaune

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2016, 01:19:27 AM »
After the II.war they were very lively - there were many tailors then and the people wanted to look elegant again (time of Dior). The last edition for dresses is now 20 ! years old. In the ladies department they collect the draftings and how to do from the journals and put them into a year book.
http://www.muellersohn.com/fachbuecher/sammelbande
as you can see in the number of the drawings on the titles as newer the book as less is the drafting content. They have now skiped an issue per year and the journal is full of fashion pics. For a custom tailor real sad.
If the translation is worth having, I can not answer. This depends on your willingness to learn. 2 of my friends have ordered and are happy learning by themselfs.
lg
posaune

Futura

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Re: Women's bodice draft... +4 cm?
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2016, 09:51:10 PM »
Less drafting content is most definitely sad. I suppose a lot of fashion nowadays is quite repetitive.

Well, I have purchased the blouses & dresses and skirts & trousers books mentioned above. I also found a copy of the 17th edition for blouses & dresses, and of out curiosity ordered it too... despite my knowing it is too early for my purposes, it is interesting nonetheless. I found copies of the 18th and 19th editions, but those may need to wait until my finances recover.

I also bought several dozen Rundschau issues from the 70's. Now I am eagerly awaiting their delivery.

I noticed that the skirts & trousers book is the 21st edition. Do you know what approximate year that edition would correspond to? I could not find a 20th edition for that. I hope it is still from the 1970's and not 1980's.