Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Apprentices => Drafting, Fitting and Construction => Topic started by: jruley on May 26, 2016, 04:41:52 AM

Title: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 26, 2016, 04:41:52 AM
As explained in post #264  of the "marathon" close-fitting sloper thread, I want to transition to development of a torso line style fitted shirt.  The idea is similar to post #12 of this thread:

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4397&hl=%2Btorso+%2Bline#entry46231. 

With one exception:  since I already have a separate back yoke, I plan to take the back panel seam vertically upward instead of curving into the back of the scye.

I have started by marking and pinning up some darts at locations recommended in the Myoungok and Injoo Kim "Patternmaking for Menswear" book.  The mockup is worn over a T-shirt as the shirt will be, but of course the finished shirt will be worn tucked into trousers.

So, what do the more experienced folks think about the location and amount of waist suppression?


(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsbhaoj2eh.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsd4idiitp.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsef4jl7wm.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zps9yuer1pk.jpg)


Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on May 26, 2016, 06:11:04 PM
To get the waist surpression right, you have to mark your waistline right; yours is too deep now.

You can feel your true waist, itīs the narrowest part of the body, more or less at elbows hight, proportional it is 1/4 of your body hieght from the back nape point downwards.

The darts will have their widest part on the true waist line.

Do you want to keep the yoke as is, or do you want to run the panel seams to the shoulder seam?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on May 26, 2016, 06:37:51 PM
I forgot:

Mark the panel lines on the toile where you want them to be. to find a nice line you can pin a piece of thicker thread (knitting wool) or a narrow ribbon.

For a good shaping the panel seams should run over the most protruding points ( nipples, shoulder blades/where the yoke dart begins).
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 26, 2016, 08:51:21 PM
Quote
Do you want to keep the yoke as is, or do you want to run the panel seams to the shoulder seam?

Keep it as it is.

Quote
Mark the panel lines on the toile where you want them to be. to find a nice line you can pin a piece of thicker thread (knitting wool) or a narrow ribbon.
For a good shaping the panel seams should run over the most protruding points ( nipples, shoulder blades/where the yoke dart begins).


OK, I will adjust these.  Do you think the overall amount of waist suppression is OK, or too much?

Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 26, 2016, 09:46:30 PM
I have moved the dart lines in to correspond better with the nipple and shoulder blade locations.  Beyond the pins, the panel line locations are marked in pink chalk:

I think it's too much, and I should try halfway between the new and old dart line locations.  But I will wait for the teacher...

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsxmsoolem.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsyv4tfhn5.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsvkvsaob6.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsuqfvtbxm.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on May 27, 2016, 01:25:16 AM
I think it's too much, and I should try halfway between the new and old dart line locations. 

YesI think so too. They are too far in.  make the line end a bit lower in the armhole and the curve a bit shallower. Move the lines out at the chest line for about 2cm. from there the line should run parallel to the center front.   For a shirt I wouldnīt take out anything at this line. Only very Y-formed people ( who prefer to spend their time at the fitness center and not at the sewing machine) need a waist surpression in this region. For normal people the panel line is comfortable to take out a bit of fullness at the armhole and the vertical lines flatters the body.

The back lines are too far in as well. shift them to nearly the old position, and make them vertical wich means perpendicular to the chest line/hem line. I think you have them parallel to the center back line, wich is not vertical.

Please mark the true waist line. ( how is the present lower line calculated in your pattern book?)

You can take out a bit more at the sides seams AT THE TRUE WAIST, but make them a bit shorter so the lowest 15cm (6") are the old side seam lines.

Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: posaune on May 27, 2016, 06:26:34 AM
My idea would be to take out at side seam and no darts - especially in front! In woman- drafting the 1. dart sits under Bust point and the back is 1/3 of Rb.
The balance in front gets worser now with the darts. For me - I would add 1 cm in Bb (bust width?).

lg
posaune
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 27, 2016, 08:22:06 AM
The pattern book calculates the waist length (neck seam to waist line) as 1/4 of height plus 3/8".  For my 6 ft height this works out to 18-3/8".  This was correct on the first pattern draft, but has grown to 20" on the current toile.  To be honest I didn't track it closely since the side seams were straight.

The 18-3/8" length has been indicated with a red line.  This is now the deepest point of the pinned darts.  Looks like I could go a bit higher; indeed the pattern book recommends making the deepest point 1" above the waist line.

Line locations have been shifted as peterle requested.  Ends of the lines (and the front curved seams) are laid out with blue chalk.

Because of my scoliosis, the back panel lines appear skewed to the left at the bottom, even though they are now square to the chest and waist lines.  Should I really do this, or follow the centerline which follows my body contour?

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpskfvj07vb.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpspxmkocpk.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsuysv74ln.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsodxzfkrb.jpg)

Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on May 27, 2016, 10:13:18 AM
Your 'true' or 'natural' waistline - that being the area with greatest depression -  is usually in line with the crook of your elbows. That red line is not the point of greatest suppression of the darts. You can clearly see so in the first photo above.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 27, 2016, 11:33:26 AM
Your 'true' or 'natural' waistline - that being the area with greatest depression -  is usually in line with the crook of your elbows. That red line is not the point of greatest suppression of the darts. You can clearly see so in the first photo above.

The red line is where the pins are set deepest - as you can clearly see in the fourth photo.  I think what is happening is the fabric is being pulled tight enough to follow the contour of my body.  I agree this shows the natural waist is higher than the red line.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on May 27, 2016, 05:34:56 PM
You can see on the pics your natural waist is another 4-5cm above the red line.

To make the darts strictly vertical is necessary because they have to follow the grain, and the grain should be vertical. A slight bias of the fabric will distort the hang of the shirt and would eventually twist. slanted darts would even pronounce the slanted body. A not so important disatvantage of the vertical darts is, they will end at different spots of the body.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: hutch-- on May 27, 2016, 05:36:18 PM
Jim,

The pinned up darts have certainly improved the shape of the shirt.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on May 27, 2016, 08:38:02 PM
Your 'true' or 'natural' waistline - that being the area with greatest depression -  is usually in line with the crook of your elbows. That red line is not the point of greatest suppression of the darts. You can clearly see so in the first photo above.

The red line is where the pins are set deepest - as you can clearly see in the fourth photo.  I think what is happening is the fabric is being pulled tight enough to follow the contour of my body.  I agree this shows the natural waist is higher than the red line.


That may be where you have set the pins the deepest, but it's not the greatest point of depression. I don't quite understand the drafting system used here because normally the points like the natural waist are measured beforehand and are factored into the draft. Like e.g. on a waistcoat where you measure from neck to natural waist, and then to full length. You can't have it yo-yo-ing up and down willy-nilly.

That point of the waist will be important when you suppress with darts because if you end up suppressing too low (over the hips) the lower half will look a complete wreck. Too high and it will be tight. In Photo three above, you can see that the there is a point of the rear dart where it is deeper above the red horizontal line.

Are you planning to have front darts on a shirt for yourself, or is this for a woman's garment?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 27, 2016, 10:34:01 PM

I don't quite understand the drafting system used here because normally the points like the natural waist are measured beforehand and are factored into the draft. Like e.g. on a waistcoat where you measure from neck to natural waist, and then to full length. You can't have it yo-yo-ing up and down willy-nilly.

Peterle asked where the draft placed the waist line, so I indicated it on the toile (red line).  This is a "proportionate" location, so it will obviously from person to person.

Quote
That point of the waist will be important when you suppress with darts because if you end up suppressing too low (over the hips) the lower half will look a complete wreck. Too high and it will be tight. In Photo three above, you can see that the there is a point of the rear dart where it is deeper above the red horizontal line.

The book calls for the deepest suppression to be 1" above the waist line (which suggests it is not the "true" waist line).  From the photos it looks like I need to go even higher as peterle observed.  These are very shallow darts, so some of what you are seeing may just be imprecise pinning - I certainly tried to get the deepest point on the red line.

Quote
Are you planning to have front darts on a shirt for yourself, or is this for a woman's garment?

There would be little point in trying a woman's garment on my body.  I assure you that my wife is a completely different shape ;).

To understand the style, you need to follow the link in the first post, or the blue chalk lines in the last picture set.

The finished shirt will have eight pieces in the body:  the yoke, two fronts, two front sides, two back sides, and the center back.  I want to run the seams all the way to the edges for a cleaner finish.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Greger on May 28, 2016, 12:50:59 AM
Is this an oriental style shirt?

Years ago, when I was thinner, I set the waist about an inch lower than natural waist. How tight or loose was set according to air flow, which was dependent upon two things: that the upper body wasn't clammy or cold. If it was too tight there wasn't enough air swooshing in and out to keep it from being clammy.  To loose and it let too much cold air in. The battle of the bulge has changed the rules.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Greger on May 28, 2016, 12:54:23 AM
"the grain should be vertical. A slight bias of the fabric will distort the hang of the shirt and would eventually twist."

Righty O.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 28, 2016, 02:01:27 AM
Is this an oriental style shirt?


I don't know where the style originated.  The pattern book I am using has it, and lepus also posted it on the C&T forum at the link I included in the first post.

I prefer the separately cut panels to darts, since I think it will be easier to get a clean looking finish.

This is primarily a fitting exercise, but if it works out well I will make it up as a solid color dress shirt.  I prefer a more relaxed fit for casual wear.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on May 28, 2016, 03:13:36 AM
The draft can't place your waistline in a different place than where it is, it relies on the measurements you take.You control the draft, not the other way around!
I'm not trying to get into a quarrel with you, I'm saying that I don't think the red line is your waistline (the one necessary for dealing with the shape of the garment), and which you agreed was above the indicated red line. If this is so then the red line is surplus to requirement and should be dispensed with. You need to mark out the actual waistline or the toile will fail. It's that black and white.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 28, 2016, 06:55:02 AM
You need to mark out the actual waistline or the toile will fail. It's that black and white.

But I thought it was red!  (j/k)

Seriously, as I said in post #7, the red line is the "proportionate" waistline for my height.  It's not my actual waist level.

I understand what you are saying, but these lines are only references.  The really important thing is to put the deepest point of the dart at the place it needs to be.  I can put it above the line if I choose, and in fact the pattern book instructs me to.  Whether this is trade standard or "best" practice is another debate.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on May 28, 2016, 07:06:40 AM
Well it completely baffles me why the waistline would be placed in one place then advice given to have most suppression at a point not on the natural waist (though I'm sure someone has a convoluted explanation - including pseudo geometry - as to why).
'Proportionate' is standardised, you should be marking 'your' waistline, which is achieved in a jiffy with the tape. If there are going to be this many steps and revisions it's perhaps best to work with 'bespoke' measurements rather than those of Joe Bloggs, est-ce pas?

From what I've seen of this 'sloper' drafting method, it seems like a lot of constant bother and juggling and jumping through hoops. There are loads of methods for drafting a shirt and applying a fairly limited number of fitting solutions to pare down the process and simplify it.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Greger on May 28, 2016, 08:20:48 AM
Probably one reason why the author of the book says higher waistline is rotation of the upper body. The lower it is the more drag on the hips, strain wise.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 28, 2016, 10:58:35 AM
'Proportionate' is standardised, you should be marking 'your' waistline, which is achieved in a jiffy with the tape. If there are going to be this many steps and revisions it's perhaps best to work with 'bespoke' measurements rather than those of Joe Bloggs, est-ce pas?


It does seem strange that the authors have the student compile a table of personal measurements, then specify proportionate ones for the sloper draft.  I don't have the accompanying teacher's guide; maybe this is to help the student find out how he compares to standard sizes.


Quote
From what I've seen of this 'sloper' drafting method, it seems like a lot of constant bother and juggling and jumping through hoops.

Actually the sloper draft was extremely simple.  What has required all the bother, juggling and hoop acrobatics was the fitting process, which went well beyond anything addressed in the book.

Quote
There are loads of methods for drafting a shirt and applying a fairly limited number of fitting solutions to pare down the process and simplify it.

So, how many of those address a dropped shoulder combined with spinal scoliosis?

It's beyond the scope of this thread, but if you (or anyone else) would like to suggest a different shirt block pattern as a starting point, I'd be happy to give it a try.

I will be happy to have any needed measurements taken, but in the spirit of the exercise only your textbook fitting solutions could be applied  - no a priori
knowledge from the previous sloper thread would be assumed.

Since I'm hardly a textbook case, I have a feeling a similar level of effort would be needed to regain the point currently arrived at.

Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 28, 2016, 11:25:56 AM
Before this goes further off topic, I would like to respectfully point out that the old sloper thread is still open.  If someone wants to criticize the original draft or process, please do so there. 

To avoid confusing current and future readers, I would like this new thread to be about turning the current draft into a finished shirt.

Although there have been disagreements, and sparks have flown at times, I sincerely appreciate everyone's input and the benefit of your experience.

Thank you.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on May 28, 2016, 11:27:34 AM
That may be true. Though I think fitting for a dropped shoulder, which is a very common fitting procedure, would take you a long way. The other regular fittings for shoulder slope, prominent hip etc, will refine it. It seems to me that there has been too many quick revisions, though on the other hand it's also worthwhile seeing the changes occur piecemeal for the purposes of study.

Your scoliosis is quite mild.

Edit - In order not to derail the thread further, I'll leave this matter alone.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Schneiderfrei on May 28, 2016, 12:05:40 PM
I think you did a great job to go thru that whole process.  I know that it is very confronting to put yourself up on the WWW.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: lepus on May 29, 2016, 04:41:13 AM
Well it completely baffles me why the waistline would be placed in one place then advice given to have most suppression at a point not on the natural waist (though I'm sure someone has a convoluted explanation - including pseudo geometry - as to why).

That amounts to an irresistable challenge  ;). I'm not privy to the details of the Kim & Kim book, but I'll venture a go. My "convoluted explanation" will thus be based on the little information I have as well as some guesswork.
For the construction of the slopers (I shall use that American term, the authors give a reasonable explanation for it) the authors place the waist line at a distance of back waist length from the reference point. I suspect however, that they measure the back waist length of the figure not vertically, but following the body contour. That introduces a difference.

If I take as an example what they show on page 33, where they transform the Close-Fit sloper into one with waist darts, they first raise the waistline by ―" and then take out a total of 2", divided between 2 darts and the side seam on that new waistline. I assume that they realise that the waistline of the figure lies higher than the waist construction line of the sloper. Where the waistline exactly is, is insignificant until waist shaping is introduced, as the sloper describes just a straight tube.

Now for the "pseudo geometry" bit, which should show us if this is a reasonable supposition.
Let's assume we have a figure of regular type with a chest measurement of 40", what they call in the book 40R. According to the table the back waist length is then 18ž". I'm unsure if there is any ease incorporated in this; let's assume there isn't. The measurement will begin at the reference point, follow the natural curves of the spine, and end at the waist. The sloper however will be drafted with the measurement straight down. If, for an approximation, we use the image in the book with the usual neck and waist indentations, the curved line ends up at a height of about 95% of the straight line. For a length of 18ž" this means a bit more than ū" higher, which does seem to be in the ballpark.

(http://s33.postimg.org/motzu3z7z/backwaistlength.png)

Perhaps this somehow satisfies the "convoluted explanation - including pseudo geometry" criterion, but if not, I'll look forward to what a successor has to say about it.


On the present issue of obtaining a shirt pattern. Is it really thought that this design is suitable for this particular figure? If I remember correctly, it was proposed in reaction to David Coffin's suggestion to a poster in the other place who wanted to make tight-fitting shirts for body builder types to use princess seams. For those mushroom-shaped figures with well-developed shoulders and chests and small, trim waists the design seems suitable. They didn't come back for further discussion however; what would have been interesting as well was how to handle the apparent balance problems, probably resulting from removing too much width.

I have no clear picture of what the objective here is I'm afraid. Is it just an exercise in handling waist suppression? An exploration of how to divert attention to the chest region? And what exactly is a "dress shirt" in this context, is it a garment for formal (evening) wear? In the latter case I would not use this design. If it is about buffing up the upper area, I would try to extend the shoulders outward as far as possible, perhaps even use epaulettes, or saddle sleeves or similar, and would keep the chest roomy (I find the front chest too narrow here, and there seems to be tightness over the right shoulder).
In this particular figure the waist could then be narrowed in back and side, but I would hesitate to take anything out in front. Other options would be to use a large front yoke, or some plastron-type design, or a limited length opening with broad elements, pockets; the possibilities are endless really.

I further notice that it has been decided to keep the current front/back imbalance, as well as the deviating centre back. One has to be aware though that if striped or chequered fabric is used, those lines are likely to be emphasised.


On another note, I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with the Experienced Professionals if I understand correctly what has been said upthread. It's more important that the darts follow the general and apparent shape of the body than that they are "vertical". In fact, the darts themselves aren't vertical anyway if they are plotted with their centre lines vertical. The most vertical you can get is to make one leg of a dart lie on the straight grain. The other leg will then be off-grain if the dart doesn't include an angle of n Ũ 90°. In this back I see the centre back line consistently deviating to the right, and I assume it is on the lengthwise grain. This arrangement has obviously been chosen, even if it implies that the hang of the back is not following the grain accurately. The back waist suppression darts should then, when sewn up, appear symmetrical with respect to this line. If angled, i.e. off-grain darts pose a problem, depending on the fabric, they can be stabilised, and in fact the stitching itself provides some stabilisation. Nobody bats an eyelash about a very slanted bust dart in a dress anyway, or extended dart rotations to unusual positions. Moving the direction of the darts away from the centre back line will present ugly distortions in striped fabrics.


One other thing about those two-pointed waist darts, if used as darts opposed to being incorporated in seams. During fitting, it's perfectly fine to pin the amount to be taken out outwards. When the darts are sewn closed however, the folded seam allowance in the centre will be the shortest length, shorter than the total length of the dart. Especially in the waist region this can prevent the dart to occupy its real position. With larger darts and unstretchable fabrics this may necessitate cutting the dart open and stretching the seam allowances.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 29, 2016, 12:25:28 PM
Thank you for that dissertation :). 

Regarding a couple of points made on the present issue of obtaining a shirt pattern:

Quote
And what exactly is a "dress shirt" in this context, is it a garment for formal (evening) wear?

"Dress shirt" in my probably imprecise and inappropropriate usage means a shirt suitable to be worn with a jacket and tie.  I have no use, or I should say no present occasion, for formal dress, at least in a 21st century context.

Quote
I further notice that it has been decided to keep the current front/back imbalance, as well as the deviating centre back. One has to be aware though that if striped or chequered fabric is used, those lines are likely to be emphasised.


As stated in post #16, the current plan is to use only solid colored fabric.  I plan to develop a looser back style for stripes and plaids, probably with pleats over the shoulder blades, in order to help conceal the issues with the back.  I am not sure what is meant by "current front/back imbalance"  and would appreciate elaboration on that point.

Quote
One other thing about those two-pointed waist darts, if used as darts opposed to being incorporated in seams.


As stated in post #13, there will be no darts in the finished shirt.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 29, 2016, 01:05:58 PM
Quote
Is it really thought that this design is suitable for this particular figure? If I remember correctly, it was proposed in reaction to David Coffin's suggestion to a poster in the other place who wanted to make tight-fitting shirts for body builder types to use princess seams. For those mushroom-shaped figures with well-developed shoulders and chests and small, trim waists the design seems suitable.

If you're trying to gently suggest that this design is liable to draw undue attention to my middle-aged gut, go ahead and say so.  I just did :).

My current "dress shirts" (as I use the term) are loose-fitting and blousy, which helps hide my fitting issues.  I have a closet full of these things, and I can buy them cheaper than the cost of good fabric yardage during sales at local department stores.  So why spend time reproducing the same style?

This "torso line" draft appeals to me as one which can be made to follow my body shape exactly.  I had a couple of "tailored fit" dress shirts years ago, and liked the look; but of course I was a bit slimmer. 

This also appeals as the logical extreme of a fitting exercise, at least without resorting to stretchable fabric.  If I get tired of the resulting shirt I can always donate it to Goodwill.  Once the pattern is validated, it can be relaxed using the "classic fit" technique given in the book to produce an easier fitting, but still form-following shirt - which I expect to make more use of than this one.

Hopefully this somewhat clarifies the objective.  My next planned step is to use the pinned-up sloper to develop the body pattern with separate panels, make that up and see what it tells us.  After which comes the collar and sleeves.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: hutch-- on May 29, 2016, 02:07:35 PM
Jim,

This comment is probably irrelevant at this stage of your development but to address the concern of an expanding stomach (middle age gut) I learnt a trick some time ago with modifying cheap Chinese long sleeve tops for men, buy them wide enough in the shoulders and long enough in the arm length then taper then down to the minimum waist line you can tolerate. I used to do it in a couple of minutes with an overlocker.

Now with a shirt design of the type you are developing, having a bit extra room around the shoulders with the higher than average sleeve cast you are using would give you more room to taper the side seams and the extra back and front darts down to the minimum waistline you can tolerate.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on May 29, 2016, 11:20:38 PM
Where the waistline exactly is, is insignificant until waist shaping is introduced, as the sloper describes just a straight tube.

This is absurd. And it probably speaks of the failure of drafting in this way. Knowing the waistline height is important for proportioning the garment pattern. Unless one is drafting a collection of potato sacks. For a fitted garment the back waist can be taken to the body contour anyway (or a depression measure taken if that sort of fit is required). There are two other books: How to Draft Patterns by Donald McCunn, and the Winifred Aldrich book, both which follow the similar creation of  a standard block to be spun out into other patterns. Both of them consider waist locations throughout.

It's no wonder people are walking around dazed in circles wondering why drafting and fitting is 'too hard'. It's falsely made to look overly-hard by overblown nonsense. You see this a lot in those post-1900 drafting books where academically frustrated authors dress up fairly simple ideas as advanced trigonometry.

It seems to me there is not much merit in carving a toothpick out of a two-ton block of oak, which is the sort of methodology this particular 'sloper' rendered into other garments seems to want to pursue.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 29, 2016, 11:44:23 PM
I have responded to Henry's latest post here:

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=238.255

Once again, I would appreciate it if posters would separate discussion of the sloper per se from discussion of the torso line shirt pattern.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Greger on May 30, 2016, 02:21:45 AM
Something about the "princess seam" in front it can allow for waist expansion.

The lengths in front, back and sides vary for need and style. If you take two tea cups and tip them 90 degrees and put imaginary heads on top where one head has an belly beneath it and the other behind it a rounded back. Clearly the lengths in front and back of each is different. Draw your waistlines. If the person has a large chest instead of belly the bulk of the front measure is above the waistline. Systems for making patterns don't always include needed changes, and really can't. It is the cutters job to decide. He will most likely put waistlines of front and back on the same horizontal line when drawing. A cutter who thinks more spacial might not, for his measurements are in his head (sees distances and draws them. As far as styles go, America has seen many of them, for they have played with their clothes, waistlines go up and down and in and out and even  diagonal. Even horse riding the under arm dart sets higher. From my perspective how the waist is shaped is only for that garment. And what looks good on paper doesn't always look good on the person. For some spacial thinkers the construction lines don't have that much meaning. Rock of Eye is a good thing.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 30, 2016, 06:59:11 AM
And now for a totally practical question:  How much ease should be added to the collar band?

The pattern book says to add the lengths of the front and back neckhole, but this is no help, since the result is less than my neck circumference.

I am aware that the finished band length also depends on the width of the overlap or placket at front.  What I am looking for is the distance from button to buttonhole.  My neck circumference is 15-1/2, so should I use 16?  16-1/2?  or something different?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on May 30, 2016, 07:04:38 PM
How does it come that your neckline is shorter than your neck circumference? Thatīs not ok. How much shorter is it? Did you measure the whole neck line on the patter or just one half?
On the pics it seems the curve of the front neckhole could be a bit curvier, especially the right side.

The collar band has to fit the neck line in length.
I like my collar band sewing line from button to button hole about 2cm longer than the neck circumference (wich is tight), but it depends on the material and interfacing. ( the thicker the material, the longer the collar).

In the toile you can split the collar band in the center back with a little bit of inlay. this allows you to lenghten or shorten the band when needed
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: posaune on May 30, 2016, 07:08:28 PM
You have mismeasured your neck circ (or on the wrong place) or the neck circ of your sloper is too small.
The width of the collar stand pattern is front neck hole + back neckhole + overlapp.
You can ease in a neckhole a little bit but not a collar stand!
lg
posaune

oh Good morning, Peterle. post were crossing
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 30, 2016, 09:51:40 PM
You have mismeasured your neck circ (or on the wrong place) or the neck circ of your sloper is too small.

Exactly, the neck circumference of the sloper is too small.  The seam line will have to be about 3/4" from the raw edge to be long enough for the band.  No wonder it had to be clipped during the fittings!
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on May 30, 2016, 11:20:33 PM
Just to try: before you alter the neck hole, please post some pics wearing the toile but add about 1-2 cm total in the center front from neckhole to hem.
Maybe we can add a bit of width in the neckhole and over the chest in one step.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on May 31, 2016, 09:56:54 AM
Just to try: before you alter the neck hole, please post some pics wearing the toile but add about 1-2 cm total in the center front from neckhole to hem.
Maybe we can add a bit of width in the neckhole and over the chest in one step.

Do you mean to add length, or width?  If length, where?  Do you think the toile is still out of balance?

I drafted the pattern pieces for all the separate panels before seeing this post, so do not really want to change this unless absolutely necessary.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on May 31, 2016, 10:11:59 AM
Width. Imagine adding 1/2 a placket's worth to either side on the fronts.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: posaune on May 31, 2016, 05:40:56 PM
Take your sloper, undersew a length of fabric in CF and, pin it close bord a bord and, do a pic.
lg
posaune
If you do no buttons and placket you are more versatile in altering.  Just leave an 4 cm overlapp (which you can stabilize) mark the center front and pin the thing together.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on May 31, 2016, 06:58:24 PM
Yes, I wanted you to add width. The toile was always a bit tight at the front chest, wearing a t-shirt underneath makes it too tight.
My proposal was a very quick alteration, just by pining the toile close, cf lines about 1-2cm apart.

Good morning Posaue, youīve been faster today...
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 01, 2016, 02:11:04 AM
If you do no buttons and placket you are more versatile in altering.  Just leave an 4 cm overlapp (which you can stabilize) mark the center front and pin the thing together.


That works fine if you always have a helper, but it's difficult to pin a garment together accurately while wearing it :).

I sewed a second set of buttonholes 3/8" from the centerline on the left side.  If needed I can gain another 3/8" on the right by moving the buttons.  Here is the result:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsstvaazph.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsdzrfudil.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsjiyd0lsf.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpst4rzwpgb.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Greger on June 01, 2016, 03:31:36 AM
The front dart get rid of it. If anything you can add cloth there. To do that cut the princess seam and add an inch inlay to both cuts so you can let out for the belly. A belly pocket. You don't really need a belly pocket, just threw that in for humor. There are some guys....
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 01, 2016, 07:40:14 PM
how much difference is between your old neck line length and your neck measure? the toile looks more relaxed at the neck now.

I think you can widen the fronts a bit more.
There are strange things going on on both armholes. I hope this is due to a big and sticky black t-shirt with wide sleeves?

I would like to see a pic of the shirt without the front darts but taken in a bit more in the sides seams at the natural waist. I think it would profit from a more shaped silhouette. you can keep the panel seams in the front, but donīt remove fabric there. In opposit to a widespread belief, the front dart in menīs garments is not there to remove superfluous fabric at the waist, but to create room for the chest. As you can see in the profile pics, this is not necessary for your body, because your belly protrudes your chest.

Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: posaune on June 01, 2016, 08:07:37 PM
In my opinion, you can't have a tight fitting garment and wear a T-shirt under it. A tight fit garment has a high cut armhole - a T-Shirt not! And this varies from brand to brand.
Ladies must wear the same bra and underwear during measureing and all the fittings, otherwise you are fitting till end's day.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 01, 2016, 10:47:36 PM
There are strange things going on on both armholes. I hope this is due to a big and sticky black t-shirt with wide sleeves?


Yes, that was the problem.

Here it is with the front darts removed, and the deepest point of side and back darts moved about 1" above the red horizontal line.  Rather than add more shape at the sides I returned to the original button line.  Don't get hung up on the short neck line, it will be easy to just cut it slightly larger all around to make the length agree with the collar band.

So, without the front darts - do I need more front width or not?

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zps1twibf6h.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpswhye7buf.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpspsnalioz.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsqc9rwlkt.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 01, 2016, 11:18:59 PM
Yes, you do need more front width. It looks so much more relaxed in the black t-shirt set of pics. neckhole and chest look so very much better and Iīm sure you can add another 1/4-3/8".

1" is not enough. the true waist looks to be at least the same amount above the red line, than the red line is above the black line.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 02, 2016, 12:18:27 AM
In my opinion, you can't have a tight fitting garment and wear a T-shirt under it. A tight fit garment has a high cut armhole - a T-Shirt not! And this varies from brand to brand.


Maybe it's different in Europe, but here in the backward, conservative Midwest shirts for business use are always worn over some kind of undershirt.  This is not to say my T-shirts are the right size :).   I may have to get some smaller ones, or alter the sleeves...
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 02, 2016, 12:47:07 AM
OK, I moved the buttons over 1/4" and used the outer set of holes.  So a total of 5/8" has been added to the front compared to the last set.  Also took slightly deeper darts on the sides, a bit higher up.

This feels much better:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsv3iopxfw.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsgqdtoohp.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpswjklhjjm.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsk8jw1wk0.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 02, 2016, 01:49:48 AM
Ohno! Itīs much too wide now! I cant see your nipples anymore!  :'(


This feels much better:


Yes, and it looks better. Interestingly your neck hole drifts to the left side. Is this due to the t-shirt es well or does it drift because it has the freedom now to do so?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 02, 2016, 01:57:30 AM
Interestingly your neck hole drifts to the left side. Is this due to the t-shirt es well or does it drift because it has the freedom now to do so?


My guess is it's because I moved the buttonholes 3/8" but only moved the buttons 1/4".  So, I will now carefully sew the holes closed, make new ones 2mm further over, and put on a small extension so I can move the buttons a corresponding amount.

I could do that, but I think a better use of my time would be a new toile with the extra front width, the darts converted to a real paneled back, the hem extended to finished length and shape, and a collar band...
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 02, 2016, 10:44:20 AM
As promised, here is a new toile with the shaping incorporated and a collar band attached:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpszpgte6o8.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsu3hbmccq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsxqatfrne.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zps8a7xmddj.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 02, 2016, 11:57:53 AM
And before peterle asks:  Here are the new pattern pieces.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/1_zpsdoweldks.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/2_zps9f1awofu.jpg)

Curved seam lines in the front were marked on the pattern, but not cut.

Inlays on the fronts are folded to reinforce the buttons and holes.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on June 02, 2016, 08:41:34 PM
In my opinion, you can't have a tight fitting garment and wear a T-shirt under it. A tight fit garment has a high cut armhole - a T-Shirt not! And this varies from brand to brand.


Maybe it's different in Europe, but here in the backward, conservative Midwest shirts for business use are always worn over some kind of undershirt.  This is not to say my T-shirts are the right size :).   I may have to get some smaller ones, or alter the sleeves...

I also wear an under-shirt (except in summer), nothing wrog with that. I just make sure the shirt accommodates it.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 02, 2016, 10:13:34 PM
Thanks for the pattern.

The band collar is not right.
It is pushing against the back of the neck because it is too straight there. The seam line of the band should be slightly S-formed  from CF to CB:

(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab204/rosenquarz7at/RSHemden2013-0015-1_zps1dot9ka3.jpg)

 Is it drafted according a pattern? How high is it? It also seems very tight, especially when it is that high. When you cut a new one, add a seam at the center back, so we are able to make some alterations in length when needed.
Especially the right side is wrong. I think the neck hole is not right there yet. The neck pushes the neck hole outwards.

As a matter of personal taste, I donīt like the back hem line. I think it is too long and too round, I would prefer it  straight in the middle with smaller curves to the side seams.

To illustrate how a tight fitting shirt is cut, I add a 70īs pattern. Notice the run of the sides seam lines and the dart:
(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab204/rosenquarz7at/3_73_155_zps3kbqxlj1.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 03, 2016, 03:55:36 AM
The band collar is not right.

 Is it drafted according a pattern? How high is it? It also seems very tight, especially when it is that high. When you cut a new one, add a seam at the center back, so we are able to make some alterations in length when needed.

Especially the right side is wrong. I think the neck hole is not right there yet. The neck pushes the neck hole outwards.


I used the pattern given in the M & I Kim book which is straight in the middle of the back.  They say height varies with style, so I took the height from an old dress shirt (Van Heusen).  I will try a new band according to your pattern, with some extra length and a seam.

BTW the collar band shape I used also agrees with a commercial shirt pattern (McCall's) I have used in the past.  Are American collars styled differently from European ones?

Quote
As a matter of personal taste, I donīt like the back hem line. I think it is too long and too round, I would prefer it  straight in the middle with smaller curves to the side seams.


Again, this comes from the old VH shirt.  My hemmer foot won't like following those curves, so I may shorten the back when the time comes.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on June 03, 2016, 05:06:29 AM
  I will try a new band according to your pattern, with some extra length and a seam.

A seam where?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 03, 2016, 07:53:11 AM

A seam where?

As peterle suggested, a seam at center back.  This is purely for convenience of alteration, it will be eliminated in the finished pattern.

Of course there is no reason why you can't piece up a neckband to save fabric...
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on June 03, 2016, 08:47:54 AM

A seam where?

As peterle suggested, a seam at center back.  This is purely for convenience of alteration, it will be eliminated in the finished pattern.

Of course there is no reason why you can't piece up a neckband to save fabric...

Peterle did not say to add a seam at the back, but I suppose piecing it will save cloth if you have to move it about. The seam he was talking about is the one that attaches to the neckhole.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 03, 2016, 09:32:38 AM

Peterle did not say to add a seam at the back, but I suppose piecing it will save cloth if you have to move it about. The seam he was talking about is the one that attaches to the neckhole.

If you look just under the collar pattern he posted, peterle said this:

Quote
When you cut a new one, add a seam at the center back, so we are able to make some alterations in length when needed.

Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on June 03, 2016, 09:38:35 AM

If you look just under the collar pattern he posted, peterle said this:

Quote
When you cut a new one, add a seam at the center back, so we are able to make some alterations in length when needed.

You're right, I missed that!
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 03, 2016, 11:14:16 AM
Here it is with a new collar band cut peterle's way, and half an inch more length.

Any more changes or are we ready to proceed with sleeves?

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpssgqwshvm.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpshpfxuado.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsef6jhjjw.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpszzmmfeow.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 03, 2016, 07:25:53 PM
How does the new collar feel? It looks more relaxed than the other.

But maybe it is a bit tight. Donīt forget a finished collar is thicker, because it consists of two pieces of dress fabric and some interfacing. These sum up to the inside of the collar, and make it even tighter. (the inner parts wrinkle, the outer fabric wonīt stretch).
You have to take that into account.

Your collar buttonhole is not placed right. The button should be in a line with the other buttons.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 03, 2016, 09:54:51 PM
How does the new collar feel? It looks more relaxed than the other.

But maybe it is a bit tight. Donīt forget a finished collar is thicker, because it consists of two pieces of dress fabric and some interfacing. These sum up to the inside of the collar, and make it even tighter. (the inner parts wrinkle, the outer fabric wonīt stretch).
You have to take that into account.

Your collar buttonhole is not placed right. The button should be in a line with the other buttons.

Collar feels good.  I cut it out of canvas, so think it is just as stiff or stiffer than the finished one will be.

You're right about the buttonhole, I made it before attaching the band and it didn't line up.  So I set the button over to compensate.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 04, 2016, 01:06:07 PM
Here I have added sleeves, both sides cut from the same pattern as in post #241   of the sloper fitting thread:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsqandgftr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsbm5h7zbv.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsf3c2q43h.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsijvlsovy.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zps96pahyjl.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsylu3xqkv.jpg)

Equalizing the shoulder lengths and adding with to the CF seems to have largely fixed the sleeve issues.

The M&I Kim pattern book recommends a two piece sleeve for this style shirt.  This piecing does not change the sleeve shape; it's intended either for economy of cloth or to facilitate construction of the cuff slit without a separate placket.

If a two-piece sleeve is used, I wonder if adding some width at the elbow would be a good idea to keep the sleeve from hanging up there?

Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 05, 2016, 11:55:51 PM
Your elbows  and hind arm are pushing back the sleeves a bit, causing folds. Iīve to think about how to handle this. Iīm not sure it can be done in a one seam sleeve.

In the meanwhile you can scoop out the back of the scye seam a bit more: just baste away a bit of the seam, crescent shaped starting a bit above the yoke seam, scooping out letīs say about 0,75-1cm of the body and sleeve (keep the scye seam sewn), rejoining the seam line at the bottom of the armhole. Maybe we can rid of the deep folds there.

I wouldnīt recommend a formed two piece sleeve in a shirt. It would look too much like a blouse or dress sleeve

But you can make the sleeve a bit slimmer by making the sleeve seam lines a bit concave instead of straight.This would probably harmonize the proportions of sleeve width and body width, without making the sleeve tighter at the base line.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 06, 2016, 02:19:09 AM
Your elbows  and hind arm are pushing back the sleeves a bit, causing folds. Iīve to think about how to handle this. Iīm not sure it can be done in a one seam sleeve.

In the meanwhile you can scoop out the back of the scye seam a bit more: just baste away a bit of the seam, crescent shaped starting a bit above the yoke seam, scooping out letīs say about 0,75-1cm of the body and sleeve (keep the scye seam sewn), rejoining the seam line at the bottom of the armhole. Maybe we can rid of the deep folds there.

I wouldnīt recommend a formed two piece sleeve in a shirt. It would look too much like a blouse or dress sleeve

But you can make the sleeve a bit slimmer by making the sleeve seam lines a bit concave instead of straight.This would probably harmonize the proportions of sleeve width and body width, without making the sleeve tighter at the base line.

Well, while you are thinking, please think about cuffs :).  The pattern book suggests a very slim style of sleeve with no pleats at the cuff.  This means tapering the sleeve more in order to match up with a fitted wristband.  This taper is a straight line all the way from the sleeve cap to cuff line.  I'm concerned this would make the protruding elbows look even worse.  I like the fitted wristband though.  So, should I keep the existing cuff width and pleat it onto the wristband, or taper the sleeve from the elbow line only?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 06, 2016, 05:14:35 AM
I prefer mine pleated. The pleats are similar to a dart, so they deliver a certain width for the elbow. The pleats should be placed next to the sleeve slash at the outside of the sleeve (not towards the body).
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Greger on June 06, 2016, 08:05:30 AM
Believe that the under arm side length is to be curved.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 06, 2016, 10:19:29 AM
In the meanwhile you can scoop out the back of the scye seam a bit more: just baste away a bit of the seam, crescent shaped starting a bit above the yoke seam, scooping out letīs say about 0,75-1cm of the body and sleeve (keep the scye seam sewn), rejoining the seam line at the bottom of the armhole. Maybe we can rid of the deep folds there.


Two slightly different changes were made to the lower back scyes:

On the left side, equal quantities were taken from the sleeve and scye as peterle suggested

On the right side, the sleeve was set slightly deeper in the scye, and the scye remained unchanged

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zps1imh2qox.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsacflinys.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsgqqevc2q.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsh9ej8rgj.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsckqxp1u2.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpskzfxmzsq.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 08, 2016, 07:03:14 PM
What means to set the sleeve slightly deeper? Did you scoop out at the bottom of the cap?
It reduced the wrinkles on the inside of the right arm, but the back of the scye seam isnīt right yet.

I canīt verify, wether the folds at the back scye are caused by a too wide t-shirt sleeve. Please post a pic without t-shirt or with a wife beater. It would also be easier to compare it with #241.

The alteration at the left sleeve didnīt change a lot. I think the back is too wide and you should scoop out the back of the scye on the back piece.
I would do it by ripping the back of the scye seam and pinning the sleeve to the body a bit inwards.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 08, 2016, 10:56:29 PM
Before changing anything else, here is the toile with no T-shirt:


(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsrxbmbnk0.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpslyo9l3d2.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zps6tkzkqh6.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsaz3hpyjb.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsdpyzljbr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpscycvtwyy.jpg)

Quote
What means to set the sleeve slightly deeper? Did you scoop out at the bottom of the cap?


Essentially yes.  But instead of actually changing the cap, I just pushed more material into the armhole in the back scye area.

Quote
I think the back is too wide and you should scoop out the back of the scye on the back piece.


If excess width is the problem, wouldn't it be better to take deeper seams at the panel lines rather than changing the scye shape?

Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 09, 2016, 01:30:38 AM
It looks so much different without T-shirt!

This tells me, the back is not too wide. It was the t-shirt sleeve, that pushed the armhole down.

So when you want to wear the shirt with a t-shirt underneath, the armhole and sleeve cap must get deeper/higher. and the sleeve must be wide enough at 4cm below the cap base line. There it has to be at least 4cm wider than your biceps +t-shirt sleeve measurement. (thanks Posaune for the hint).

Probably it would be a good idea to remeasure your bodyīs chest measure over the t-shirt as well to compare wether there is enough ease. A t-shirt needs another 4cm ease at the chest level.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 09, 2016, 01:53:23 AM
It looks so much different without T-shirt!

This tells me, the back is not too wide. It was the t-shirt sleeve, that pushed the armhole down.

So when you want to wear the shirt with a t-shirt underneath, the armhole and sleeve cap must get deeper/higher. and the sleeve must be wide enough at 4cm below the cap base line. There it has to be at least 4cm wider than your biceps +t-shirt sleeve measurement. (thanks Posaune for the hint).

Probably it would be a good idea to remeasure your bodyīs chest measure over the t-shirt as well to compare wether there is enough ease. A t-shirt needs another 4cm ease at the chest level.

I think the basic problem is that my newest (also thickest and stiffest) T-shirts are too big to wear with this fitted of a shirt.  I don't want to spoil the fit in order to accommodate an oversized undergarment.  The armscyes on these T-shirts are very deep so I'm not really surprised it caused a problem.  I have a few smaller ones I can wear, or I could buy sleeveless ones.

So, looking at the photos with no T-shirt, what remaining problems do you see?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Greger on June 09, 2016, 06:28:47 AM
There are sleeveless undershirts.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on June 09, 2016, 08:08:20 AM
I prefer one with sleeves for under a shirt for the winter.  All my t-shirts undershirts are close fit with high armholes, so I've never had a problem wearing a fitted shirt over them.

In the case of this thread, you need to make the kind of shirt that will fit over what you will most likely wear under it. I routinely wear the same sort of under-shirts (and replace them with the same) so I know they will fit under the shirts I wear.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Schneiderfrei on June 09, 2016, 09:44:00 AM
In Australia they are called 'singlets', in Britain I think it might be 'vest'.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on June 09, 2016, 10:32:49 AM
In Australia they are called 'singlets', in Britain I think it might be 'vest'.

It certainly is, but singlet is used too.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 09, 2016, 11:57:19 AM
Quote
In the case of this thread, you need to make the kind of shirt that will fit over what you will most likely wear under it.

Just for comparison's sake, here I am wearing one of my current "dress shirts".  This is an OTR 15-1/2 neck, 34/35 sleeve:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsbh98prvl.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpssuopauvr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpss91wrlvq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsbqu5ka16.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpstre4wro4.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zps81l5q6iy.jpg)

This is loose fitting enough that the T-shirt doesn't affect the fit.  None of my current shirts are more fitted than this; some are much looser.  So I simply haven't had to consider the effect of undergarments in the past, unless I wore two shirts.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 09, 2016, 11:59:53 AM
In Australia they are called 'singlets', in Britain I think it might be 'vest'.

In America "vest" means a waistcoat.

They say British and Americans are two peoples divided by a common language...
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Greger on June 09, 2016, 02:07:25 PM
Deep armholes in undergarments also affects coats. Deeper armholes are not a blessing, except if you are really old. Coats should rule, because they are more expensive and far more work. T-shirts, maybe it is best to make them.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 11, 2016, 09:42:27 PM

So, looking at the photos with no T-shirt, what remaining problems do you see?


One problem I see is the gaping button stand. it is caused by a too high front neck hole. In the profile pic you can see the neck hole is about 1-1,5 cm too high at center front.
Shift the front neck hole line downwards for this amount. The collar band will have to be elongated too.(there is inlay at the center back).

For the sleeves, I think you could make the sleeve cap a tad higher by scooping out the lower curves by about 1,5cm. this will hopefully eat up a bit of the superfluous lenght at the inside of the upper arm.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 12, 2016, 10:36:53 AM

One problem I see is the gaping button stand. it is caused by a too high front neck hole. In the profile pic you can see the neck hole is about 1-1,5 cm too high at center front.
Shift the front neck hole line downwards for this amount. The collar band will have to be elongated too.(there is inlay at the center back).


OK.

Quote
For the sleeves, I think you could make the sleeve cap a tad higher by scooping out the lower curves by about 1,5cm. this will hopefully eat up a bit of the superfluous lenght at the inside of the upper arm.


Is this needed in front and back, or only in front?  I don't want to reduce the cap width as it is quite tight around the arm already.

I would like to relocate the sleeve seam so it lines up with the body side seam.  Is there any reason not to do this?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on June 12, 2016, 10:58:14 AM
Is this garment for an immobile mannequin then? I gather it is a shirt; attempting to remove every last sign of a wrinkle seems to me like sweeping up leaves in a strong wind.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Schneiderfrei on June 12, 2016, 10:24:22 PM
jruley I once attempted to gain a licence to practice physiotherapy in the state of Oregon.  One of the "hoops" I had to jump through was to have an Australian government official verify that English was the national language of Australia.

I wanted (badly) to provide the Oregon registration board with a map of the known world showing English speaking nations and those that spoke English-related languages such as American. :)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 12, 2016, 11:08:55 PM
One of the "hoops" I had to jump through was to have an Australian government official verify that English was the national language of Australia.


So, how'd you make out with that one?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 12, 2016, 11:16:24 PM
Is this garment for an immobile mannequin then? I gather it is a shirt; attempting to remove every last sign of a wrinkle seems to me like sweeping up leaves in a strong wind.


It is true that (except for the high buttoning point at neck) this already fits better than any shirt I own.

There is more to this than making a shirt, however.  The idea is to create the best fitting garment possible, at least within reason.  This tight fit can then be relaxed to create more practical styles of shirts without losing the shape of my body.  It can also be manipulated to add appropriate shaping and east to create vest and jacket patterns which will also conform to the body shape.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jeffrey on June 12, 2016, 11:27:00 PM
I think the neck line on your toile looks great!!!
Maybe peterle means the neckline on the blue shirt?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 12, 2016, 11:45:33 PM
I think the neck line on your toile looks great!!!
Maybe peterle means the neckline on the blue shirt?

I am quite sure he means the toile.  The blue shirt is an off-the-rack one, shown for comparison only.  It has nothing to do with this pattern.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Schneiderfrei on June 13, 2016, 02:02:58 AM
I got a job in Canada instead.  Lived on Vancouver Island 2 years then Pitt Meadows.  Studied out of Edmonds WA.  Was a great experience.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 13, 2016, 02:50:11 AM
I got a job in Canada instead.  Lived on Vancouver Island 2 years then Pitt Meadows.  Studied out of Edmonds WA.  Was a great experience.

Glad to know it worked out OK for you.  I was curious how you managed to find a government official willing to answer the question.  I'm sure a similar question to the US government would be batted back and forth between departments until it died :). 

Every government needs a Ministry of Silly Questions, but how many have one?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 13, 2016, 08:00:18 PM


Is this needed in front and back, or only in front?  I don't want to reduce the cap width as it is quite tight around the arm already.

I would like to relocate the sleeve seam so it lines up with the body side seam.  Is there any reason not to do this?


imagine the sleeve sewn together and scoop out/make deeper the U-part of the cap line.(yes, scoop out front and back part of the sleeve cap). donīt worry about the sleeve width. keep it as is. the deepening will not increase the cap line length that much.

Relocating the sleeve seam is not a problem. But before you shift it defenitely, try wether it makes sense to rotate the sleeve in the armhole in a way the sleeve center line lies about 1,5cm towards the back from the shoulder line. You can just pin it.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Schneiderfrei on June 13, 2016, 11:14:28 PM
My local member of parliament thought it was outrageously stupid and was very happy to write for me.  It didn't help, Oregon had no intention to let me practice.  Missouri gave me a licence but the profession self destructed before I could start back in 1999.  Vancouver Island was delightful.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 13, 2016, 11:18:35 PM
Here the front of collar has been lowered 1/2", and the left sleeve has been rotated in the armhole 1/2".  These are rough changes; the collar seam length has not been corrected and I did not scoop out the sleeve cap curve.  Fine adjustments can be made once the teacher confirms we are on the right track.  The right sleeve remains as in post #71.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsxfpicoja.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zps6bjkfxkb.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpskzeibqsd.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsmjekzpue.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsa0urbn7p.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpssusvw6wr.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 13, 2016, 11:27:27 PM
My local member of parliament thought it was outrageously stupid and was very happy to write for me.  It didn't help, Oregon had no intention to let me practice.  Missouri gave me a licence but the profession self destructed before I could start back in 1999.  Vancouver Island was delightful.

Glad to hear your MP was willing to take ownership, and sorry your professional credentials were impacted - I missed that the first time.

If the Wikipedia article is accurate, Australia (like the US) has no "official" language.  If there was any question about your proficiency I image a simple essay question would have been a more suitable test than getting the government involved...
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Schneiderfrei on June 14, 2016, 12:51:18 AM
Well it was a trick question that they had back then to weed out the South Americans and Filipinos and so forth.  Driving around the Pacific Northwest sure was nice.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: posaune on June 14, 2016, 06:27:48 AM
Neck is way better now. a bit more width at the left side maybe.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Greger on June 14, 2016, 04:24:23 PM
Neck height at front varies with different reasons.  For example, some older men like higher neck lines to hide wrinkles, spots and whatever.  One guy was in a plane crash and was burned. A high neck line hid much of the burn.  Nice to have a higher neck line in cold weather. Those are a few reasons for high.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: posaune on June 14, 2016, 09:42:38 PM
Well, I think a too high neckline will choke you. If you want to camouflage it would be better to wear a high collar stand in the right place and button it up (look at Karl Lagerfeld).
lg
posaune
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: hutch-- on June 14, 2016, 10:33:30 PM
I guess it must have some to do with the actual shape of the person, I cannot wear high front neck lines as they cut across my throat. Its a problem with earlier Chinese T shirts that had the neck opening too high. You also got the effect of getting the lower back of the neck sunburnt in the summer unless you wore a brimmed hat. Like many others I need a forward located neck opening.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 14, 2016, 11:10:21 PM
Like many others I need a forward located neck opening.


This is a good point, some coat cutting books distinguish between "head forward/backward" and "balance".

I'm sure the neckhole and collar band can be shaped to make the collar button higher or lower.  Given the current neckband shape, the latest change looks and feels better because it isn't forcing the button stand to gape open.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 15, 2016, 02:16:29 AM
The neck looks much better now. But remeasure the collar band, to be sure you donīt ease in one of the pieces.

The sleeve too. The heavy fold got milder. For the scooping out, just open the lower half(or a bit less) of the armhole seam. Probably the inside of the sleeve gets up by itself when you open the sleeve seam a bit too.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 15, 2016, 03:51:48 AM
Here the bottom half of the left sleeve cap has been adjusted as peterle requested:


(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsxgc5sev3.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zps3uuh9qmt.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsqiblghxj.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsbvuhthbd.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpscjbvrccl.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsi8xmccwd.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 16, 2016, 05:15:26 AM
To relocate the sleeve seam to line up with the body side seam, I first trimmed away excess from the sleeve cap seams where they had been inserted further into the armhole.  Then I marked the balance points and carefully removed the sleeve.  I pressed it flat, using the marks for the old shoulder seam and side seam as references. 

Then I drafted a new sleeve pattern, using the folded edges of the sleeve as centerline and seam lines.  I checked and corrected the cap seam length and re-marked the balance points.  The folded sleeve and new pattern are shown here:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/np_zpsskfvpbs8.jpg)

I put the left sleeve back in its hole, and cut a new right sleeve off the new pattern.  Here is the result.

The big remaining issue I see is the diagonal fold in back running from scye to waist.  This is more pronounced on the right side but also is there on the left.  Any suggestions?


(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpspuqe7dgm.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpstlugxkwe.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsfyexelax.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsifiwqdgz.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsh3ytpu77.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsl4mv9cnl.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 17, 2016, 11:54:19 AM
Just for comparison, here is a picture set taken with the toile worn over a different, smaller (M vs L) T-shirt.  It doesn't seem to be causing the issues with the scye that the large one did.  Diagonal folds in the back are still there, but less pronounced.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpszlksrwgx.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsojp1yyzk.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsfdwl2kmc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsijkixbmx.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpszb8ppuxx.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsnmvbxt2l.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 17, 2016, 07:15:13 PM
Iīm not terribly sure about the fold in the back. It comes and goes.

One aspect is probably the grain of the back. Does your grain follow the black center line? The grain should be strictly vertical, perpendicular to the yoke seam to avoid some twisting.

The other aspect is, your right arm/shoulder lies more to the back than the left. Thus the arm pulls the armhole backwards. In the last picture you can see a fold at the front armhole, caused by pulling. The superfluous width in the back forms the long fold. To verify this theory, force your right shoulder forward wearing the toile and look what happens.


BTW: Why didnīt you rotate the right sleeve like the left?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: posaune on June 17, 2016, 08:29:21 PM
I think the Tee shoot the clean neck fit and enhanced the fault at the armhole.
I suggest you should stay during the fitting with No Tee.
Afterwards with adding ease you can have a Tee underneath.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 18, 2016, 12:12:50 AM
One aspect is probably the grain of the back. Does your grain follow the black center line? The grain should be strictly vertical, perpendicular to the yoke seam to avoid some twisting.

The grain is vertical.  The black line is the skewed centerline from the sloper draft and is just there for reference.
Quote
The other aspect is, your right arm/shoulder lies more to the back than the left. Thus the arm pulls the armhole backwards. In the last picture you can see a fold at the front armhole, caused by pulling. The superfluous width in the back forms the long fold. To verify this theory, force your right shoulder forward wearing the toile and look what happens.

Will have to give that a try.

Quote
BTW: Why didnīt you rotate the right sleeve like the left?

The rotation is actually there.  Look carefully at post #103 where I drafted the new sleeve pattern.  The new centerline is drawn to meet the black line on the shoulder (old sleeve seam) with the sleeve rotated.  It has nothing to do with the old centerline.
If you look carefully at the left sleeve you can see a faint crease mark running from the shoulder seam to cuff.  This is where I folded the left sleeve to make the new pattern, and is the same location as the black centerline on the right sleeve.

I think the Tee shoot the clean neck fit and enhanced the fault at the armhole.
I suggest you should stay during the fitting with No Tee.
Afterwards with adding ease you can have a Tee underneath.
lg
posaune

I was planning on making a fitted shirt straight off this pattern.  When I add ease, I will make a more casual style, probably with a plain back or pleats at the shoulder blades.
So if this tee is still a problem maybe I should try a sleeveless one?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 18, 2016, 12:45:53 PM
Here I have added a collar leaf and new left sleeve with finished cuff.  The collar is from the draft peterle posted in #54.  It seems oversized to me, but I added 1/4" seams all around - maybe they were included in the draft?

The cuff size was taken from the old blue shirt since it seems to fit well at the wrist.  Double pleats were added using the method in my pattern book.  I think I would like the sleeve just a little longer.

BTW this is over the same T-shirt worn in the last set.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpshnugp4jr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zps0wxabbtn.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zps95wu1c1z.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsupsrh1sg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsfm0evvsq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpswffvww0l.jpg)

Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 18, 2016, 08:39:41 PM
The collar is too big. Maybe you made a mistake in calculating inch/cm. Maybe you can find a metric ruler, should not be a problem in the US.

I think You shouldnīt make the sleeve  a lot longer. When you spread the thumb, the edge of the cuff should reach the spot, where the thumb connects to the hand.
The pleats should be as near as possible to the placket. How far is the placket slash from the back seam?

In my eyes, the sleeve seam could be hollowed a bit ( make the sleeve seam lines a bit, letīs say 1-1,5cm concave instead of straight), this would shape the sleeve a bit.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 18, 2016, 09:44:04 PM
The collar is too big. Maybe you made a mistake in calculating inch/cm. Maybe you can find a metric ruler, should not be a problem in the US.

Actually I used the metric side of a tape measure to lay it out.  Does the draft you posted include seam allowance, and if so, how much?

Quote
I think You shouldnīt make the sleeve  a lot longer. When you spread the thumb, the edge of the cuff should reach the spot, where the thumb connects to the hand.

I was thinking only 1/2" longer or so.  I like my cuffs not to ride up the arm when I extend it horizontally.

Quote
The pleats should be as near as possible to the placket. How far is the placket slash from the back seam?

The slash is halfway between the sleeve centerline and seam.  This is what the pattern book recommended.  The pleats are pretty deep, so maybe I should narrow the cuff width a bit.

Quote
In my eyes, the sleeve seam could be hollowed a bit ( make the sleeve seam lines a bit, letīs say 1-1,5cm concave instead of straight), this would shape the sleeve a bit.

Where would you put the deepest point of the hollow, at the elbow line?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: posaune on June 18, 2016, 11:10:33 PM
Jim, that could not be.
The stand is about 3 cm and the collar is 4 cm at CB. It should cover the stand but not touch the back.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 19, 2016, 09:13:16 AM
The stand is about 3 cm and the collar is 4 cm at CB. It should cover the stand but not touch the back.
lg
posaune

The numbers are 4 and 5, or are you deducting seams?

Anyway if the fall is 1cm deeper than the stand, why wouldn't it touch the back?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: posaune on June 19, 2016, 07:30:11 PM
Sorry about my mistake - old head.  The fall rises up from the stand, needs for this let's assume 3 mm bends over the stand another 3 mm  (depends on how thick (Interfacing+ 2 layer of fabric) it is) and falls down (over the 3 mm). This process has used 9 mm from the fall and let 4.1 mm left as is the measure of the stand.  So the fall just hides the seam of the stand.  If the fall is larger you get folds as you have.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on June 19, 2016, 09:57:11 PM
The collar doesn't have to be a bother. As long as you've ascertained the correct circumference for fitting the stand (as you already have done) the length and shape of the points are merely cosmetic changes.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 19, 2016, 10:32:24 PM
The collar doesn't have to be a bother. As long as you've ascertained the correct circumference for fitting the stand (as you already have done) the length and shape of the points are merely cosmetic changes.

True.  I just wanted to find out (for future reference) if the collar draft peterle posted included seam allowance.  That question still hasn't been answered, or I missed it.

The dummy collar and stand are each cut from a single thickness of canvas drill, so the finished collar may fold a bit differently.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: posaune on June 20, 2016, 01:31:16 AM
No seam allowance
lg
posaune
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on June 20, 2016, 01:55:32 AM
No seam allowance
lg
posaune

Are you certain? If there isn't then the collar is huge!

Maybe it is not set far enough into the stand? The point shape is distinctly 1970s and they're goung to have to be altered for personal preference.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: posaune on June 20, 2016, 06:09:18 AM
I'm sure. The whole drafting of "Waesche" (means shirts and underwear, sleeping wear) is without s.a. And this is good!!!
The collar is not so big. My biggest is a (modern) Kent collar.
(https://s31.postimg.org/sxp6lb4g7/kent2.png) (https://postimg.org/image/sxp6lb4g7/)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 20, 2016, 08:22:48 PM
Iīm pretty sure the draft is without sa.
First it is a shirt and as posaune wrote, shirts usually are drafted without sa in german publications.
Second, when drafted with sa, usually 0,75cm, the stand would be only 2,5cm wide, and the overlap at CF would be only 1cm.

But youīr right, 4cm for the collar stand is on the wider side. I prefer 3,5cm as well.

Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 21, 2016, 10:53:59 AM
Here the collar has been cut down to the same profile as the old blue shirt.  The left sleeve seam has been hollowed 5/8" at the height of the elbow as peterle suggested:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsyb5d04zk.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsxowgm2ul.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsrg6uyrwq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsrrrcuqhn.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpselrws3dc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsontgf95t.jpg)


Any further ideas before I make one in finish fabric?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Schneiderfrei on June 21, 2016, 01:59:03 PM
I think there really is an issue at the left back shoulder.  I believe after this much work you would not be happy to leave that untouched. :)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 21, 2016, 10:12:31 PM
I think there really is an issue at the left back shoulder.  I believe after this much work you would not be happy to leave that untouched. :)


Can you be more specific?  You think it's too wide?

These last shots were taken with no T-shirt, I'm wondering if that made a change...
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on June 21, 2016, 11:56:52 PM
My idea for the collar: It looks a bit clumsy. You could redraw the outer edge with a slightly hollowed curved line. This would look a bit more elegant.

The front pleat at the cuff is wrong. all the pleats should be between the center line and placket (exept when you are after a buccaneer style). you can take the center line for the visible edge of the first pleat. ( the pleats act as a dart to take in the wideness of the elbow. Thatīs why they are located more at the back.)

When there is not enough room between center line and placket to handle all the superfluos width, shift the placket a bit towards the sleeve seam.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Schneiderfrei on June 22, 2016, 01:34:08 AM
What I mean is that big diagonal fold running from the right shoulder point, right across to the CB waist with arms down and to the CB hip with arms up.

It even seems to involve the sleeve; the back scye has excess cloth, especially in the back bodice itself.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 23, 2016, 05:33:14 AM
Here we have a new right sleeve with finished cuff.  Length is 3/8" more than the left sleeve, less fullness at the cuff and the pleats have been re-worked as peterle suggested:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsbwa0bisb.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpszpn3tauf.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsqzbg0iwc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsgtz7ylkr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zps4e23rewa.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsalfckqd3.jpg)
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on June 23, 2016, 05:36:35 AM
What I mean is that big diagonal fold running from the right shoulder point, right across to the CB waist with arms down and to the CB hip with arms up.

It even seems to involve the sleeve; the back scye has excess cloth, especially in the back bodice itself.

Peterle pointed out in post #105 that this seems to come and go.  I'm not sure what can be done about it, but I'm open to suggestions.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: posaune on June 23, 2016, 06:09:12 AM
I second Peterle's suggestion.  I think it has to do with the back armhole curve/front armhole curve  - and because this muslin fabric is stretching it makes no sense to fix it now.
I like the style of the right sleeve.
I see 3 issues: When you look at front in height of the overarm bone (do not know the english word)  you see this bone head is protruding. Now there is some  length and width needed in my opinion in  both sleeve cap and armhole. In the back we see too much fabric in the back sleeve cap . I think to much curve in the cap here.  And of course there could be a bit more cap height but his would mean a smaller but longer cap (tighter) or a cap with more ease.

lg posaune
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on July 22, 2016, 01:58:59 AM
Here is a finished shirt made from the last pattern.  This is worn over a close-fitting T-shirt and tucked into the trousers, as intended (but not as fitted):

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsvtjddzon.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsfuxhe6np.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsfpmzxcs1.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsrx8hslrt.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsam97xxnf.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsvuaroybj.jpg)

The shirt looks and feels too tight, and restricts movement, especially when the arms are raised.  Material is a cheap poly/cotton broadcloth from the now defunct Hancock Fabrics chain.  Compared to the muslin mockup this has no stretch at all, which I think is contributing to the tightness.

I think arm motion might be freer with a more traditional sleeve with a lower cap height.  However, this body is also too tight for me, so I think the next step should be to develop a more classically fitting pattern by grading this up a size.

Comments?
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Henry Hall on July 22, 2016, 02:51:21 AM
Nice bold colour Jim. Whatever issues there are to be noted (and I'll leave that to the people who guided this) the finished shirt does rather a lot to disguise the body imbalances. I like it.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: peterle on July 22, 2016, 04:44:49 AM
Really a nice colour, Jim.

I do recognize some issues we had in the toile too, like a bit tight across the front chest.

But the diagonal folds at the fronts from sideseam towards the CF are completely new. Is the material sticking to the t-shirt? Or not tucked in carefully? We should be sure about this before the pattern gets changed.
Iīd love some pics without -shirt.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: Greger on July 22, 2016, 09:33:46 AM
If you grad the shirt, just do the front.
The sleeves doesn't look right, either.
Title: Re: A Torso Line shirt
Post by: jruley on July 22, 2016, 10:21:26 AM
Here is the shirt worn on the skin.  For thoroughness' sake here it is shown untucked:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsor2pmges.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsign67wzd.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsfn40uile.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsav5ck4gc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsl3n2rv0t.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zps1pfvjmz2.jpg)

And now tucked in:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpszsaw11dm.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsjv3jwqeg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsfxibnm92.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsdjiepdel.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsqmpftq5d.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsr3etmn4y.jpg)

Some of the issues are due to the T-shirt, but there is a bunch of wrinkles on the right front that was not present on the mockup.

This is too close fitting for practical wear, so I am less worried about rescuing it than working out the way forward for a new one.  Thanks everyone for your compliments and help.