Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Historical And Period Costumes => Costumers Forum => Topic started by: TTailor on October 07, 2017, 11:51:01 PM

Title: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 07, 2017, 11:51:01 PM
Here we go!
I have taken on a project that involves making a few costumes for an opera. One of the singers is quite a big guy, but I have not personally measured him, nor will I get a chance to fit him.
I have measurements from one source, a random photo from another and I have a uniform jacket in hand that he wore recently, and I found online photos of him wearing it.
This is my starting point.

How I would love it if management was more proactive about getting proper measurements and photos to aid in costume construction! I dont know why they aren't.
It could be because they dont have to be in my head, maybe assume that making the pattern is easy, and dont realize the process, they just see the end result?

Who knows.

I will attempt to post my process here, just to make your head spin too!



Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: posaune on October 08, 2017, 12:27:18 AM
Terri,
I'm looking forward!
lg
posaune
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: tom bennett on October 08, 2017, 02:24:55 AM
I hope I am not talking out of turn and Rory doesn't mind me recounting one of his anecdotes: While I was over in Ireland learning the craft of coat making with my "Young Master" Rory, he told a tale of a chap handing him the off-cuts of a pattern and was asked, with some seriousness, if he would be able to reconstruct the original pattern from all the small and large cuttings.  Well I almost fell of my perch with laughter.  All the best Terri. :)
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: posaune on October 08, 2017, 05:10:03 AM
Oh tombennett, I think it is not as impossible as it sounds. She has some measurements. She has a jacket and she has some photos from him wearing that jacket. So with mathematical calculations and measureing the photos and recalculting and her big experience in PatternMaking I'm sure Terri will be spot on. I'm very curious to see and read about her method. I think I will learn a lot.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: tom bennett on October 08, 2017, 06:07:40 AM
Oh posaune, I was merely recounting a story. I know Terri will be able to make the ordered garment, no offence was meant
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: spookietoo on October 08, 2017, 01:37:52 PM
Oh, Terri, designing and working through someone else's eyes can be very trying! Building design jobs are difficult that way, and my friend, a civil engineer, has had to deal with other licensed engineers that have seen nothing wrong with storm drains being located 3' from the edge of the road bed, deciding they were "close enough".  I can't even imagine trying to fit a garment.

Any possibility the company has a wardrobe person that knows one end of a measuring tape from the other and can take a decent photo with a smart phone?  I like to try to work with the same person repeatedly when I can. Even knowing that an opinion of someone is "questionable" can be more informative that depending on various opinions - with no consistency involved.

Good luck!
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 08, 2017, 10:43:29 PM
Well, my colleague Evan will be making something for him too. So at some point we will be putting our heads together.
Opera singers are usually travelling and sometimes arrive quite late in the process. often the wardrobe must prep the garments according to whatever measurements they have, and then fit and finish in a very short time.
If you are the person doing the fitting in these situations you are usually scrambling to get all that you need done in about 45 minutes, and that usually includes other people coming in to check the fit of boots, hats and accessories. At least at that point you have what you need to finish, but not more info for the next cutter down the line.
Sometimes getting someone in just for a measurement session is logistically a problem. I always try to get a tape measure around the person at least to confirm chest waist and hip and a balance measurment in a fitting to note on the measurement sheet, but we get pushed for time.
This time, I wont get a fitting.
I want to minimize fitting issues for the person who will be faced with getting everything on stage.

Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 10, 2017, 08:46:43 AM
So, First things first.
i have a measurement sheet that has measurements taken in 2014, and a few checked again in Nov 2016.
I have a jacket worn somewhat recently, and I found photos on the internet of the singer wearing the jacket.

I have to make doublets for him. A different fit than a suit jacket, and more complicated stylistically, but I will have to do a little drawing for you to see what I need to do.

I usually transcribe the measurements to a separate page, changing them to metric because I draft in metric. But I am an equal opportunity user of systems, so sometimes I revert to imperial. Bear with me. My concerns/notes are in italic.

Height 180/90/45
neck 53
chest 140/70/35
waist 122/61/30.5
hip 122/61/30.5
nape to waist back 51.5   proportional for his height is 45 so we have a difference of 6.5cm
throat to waist front 49 hmm?
across back 51 proportional for his chest 53, and the jacket he wore is 55
nape to cf waist 73.5 the jacket was worn with a belt, and I think this is marginally too long looking at the jacket on a stand
nape to shoulder 25 seems too short a measure to me, and the jacket measures 29.5 there
working scale 62

The jacket measures just 140 cm around chest as it is. Hmmm
The front belt hook makes the waist profile look very slanted. A drop of an inch (2.5cm) below the horizontal waist construction line in regular sizes gives a nice line visually. For a guy this size, I think an inch and a half (4cm) is good.
I have a nape to floor and a throat to floor measurement so I can pad up a stand and try to use this information and double check the waist line amongst other things.

photos to come, I have to get them onto my computer. I have a rough half scale thinking draft and some pics of the jacket.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 10, 2017, 11:50:54 AM

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4444/37346358700_8c5c253068_n.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4490/37346358340_e3eaa7a8e4_n.jpg)

Here is a link to the Flickr Album.
https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6Egfyq (https://flic.kr/s/aHsm6Egfyq)

Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 10, 2017, 12:01:58 PM
I know there are issues with the fit of this jacket, but lets not be too harsh. I don't know who made it, but I bet they were doing their best under less than ideal circumstances.
I am open to hearing your opinions though.

Obviously the hem is too long in the front, and there is a surplus of fabric at the side hip. The profile picture is good for assessing his back shape. also it looks as though the body is too tight over the belly/upper midriff area.
There are issues with the armhole/sleeve fit.
Trousers look pretty good.

Thats all for tonight. I need a cup of tea.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: Schneiderfrei on October 10, 2017, 12:08:05 PM
I am really enjoying your efforts here Terri, many thanks.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: posaune on October 11, 2017, 06:17:08 AM
I just write down what I see:
he being a singer I think his chest is wide: 140 to 122 waist and a 122 hip. You see a wide neck too. (My husband plays the trombone (hence my name) and his chest is quite big (but his belly too)), normal porportion do not work here.  His Back is a bit rounded but starting already at the center of shoulderblades. So he needs maybe more back width too - but, no, I think not with this jacket. The jacket has to much width under the waist girth in back and the belt is not doing anything good. If you look at his side posture his bum is behind the shoulder blades (not much) and he thrust the hips a bit in front. Means belly draft. You need to take out width at the back from the side panel.  What you take out you need to add this to the front (belly).
The biggest issue are the sleeves. They are too tight and I do not think they are positioned in the right place. The belt pushes the back up, it seems too short and the armholes are maybe not deep enough. But a singer may need short armholes,  he gesticulates much, so you have to cut the sleeve wider and shorter.
The trousers are a bit longer over the back side.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 11, 2017, 08:50:42 AM
Posaune, thank you for your observations!
I agree with you, especially for belly and about the sleeves.
It is interesting to hear about what someone else sees.

I asked to use a stand at work and went in today, and padded it up to be closer to what I imagine his shape to be.

Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: hutch-- on October 11, 2017, 02:09:24 PM
This sounds like a case of "Difficult is managed normally but impossible takes longer."  ;)
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 12, 2017, 11:08:04 AM
i wrote up a long post and then I lost it during some ipad trickery! arghhh!
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 12, 2017, 11:26:10 AM
Where to start?

I drafted a half scale thinking model.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4474/36971883323_35d7c4c018_n.jpg)

I set up some basic lines of my draft. I wont go through it in fine, fine detail, otherwise I wont have time to get the work done!
The back:
I used the proportional waist length and a scye depth for a 112cm/45" chest as a starting point.

I have three numbers for his cross back width. One from the measurement sheet, one proportional based on chest size and one from the jacket he wore. I decided to use the biggest number here as too big is much easier to deal with than too small.

Since his back waist length is 6.5 cm longer than proportional, I decided to apply 3.5 cm of that above the scye line and 3 cm below the proportional waist length line. It just seemed right to me at the time. At the armhole though, I added only 2.5 cm . I did this by cutting the paper and inserting a strip then pivoting from the CB to take out 1cm at the armhole.
I calculated his back neck width, 1/10 h chest plus 3 gives 10cm, and I compared it with another formula of 1/5 neck minus .5 which gave me 10.1. So 10cm is good.
Draw in the shoulder line and include a standard 2cm dart.
suppression at CB is a marginal 1.5cm.
tentative back dart placement and amount of 3cm.
Draw in a tentative side seam line and a marginal amount of suppression there.
Fronts:
I then marked the armhole width and located the CF line.
This is a doublet, and usually I would only allow 2.5cm ease on the half for something close fitting, but I increased this because again- a bit more ease is easier to take in, than not being able to button up the fronts.
I can see that his belly is full so at the waist line I allowed 2cm beyond the CF for corpulency.
Next is locating the neck point, both its height above the top line and its distance from the cf line.
       The further away from the CF construction line, the more crooked the neck point. This helps to create a closer fitting armhole, but also can put an excess of fabric in the neckline, or excess length in the CF line. I used a couple of methods and try them out to see what looks good to me. Not exactly scientific I know.

Once I get the neck point, I can draw in the CF line and front neckline, a tentative front shoulder line, a tentative armhole shape too. I like to cut out the back pattern and lay the shoulder lines together, looking at the slope and the run of the armhole over the shoulders.
I mark a tentative dart placement and amount in the front, check the waist size, draw in the bottom style line roughly.

At this point I then made a full size pattern and cut out a test in some drill. I stitched some of it together, but left a lot just pinned

The next step is to go and pad up a stand.

I went back later and changed my mind about how that excess back length would be split, adding a cm more above the scye and 1 cm below the scye.
Gives me an armhole of 70 cm though. That seems very large. Hmmm.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 18, 2017, 12:50:51 AM
basic pattern
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4494/36971880863_3911fcaea5.jpg)


padded a stand
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4481/36971893183_7b1c81a079.jpg)

quick mockup on the stand
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4488/36932532564_af72a65261.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4482/37610734232_4efd6a1f9b.jpg)

After looking at this for a while I corrected a few things.
I changed how I divided up the excess back length to 4.5 above the scye line and 2cm below the proportional waist length line. I corrected the run of the front armhole.
i darted in the CF line slightly below the belly.
I gave him a little more length at the neck point, letting the fronts drop a tidge more. I had a nape to floor measurement and a base of throat to floor measurement, so I double checked that.
I think I will increase the back shoulder dart slightly.


Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 18, 2017, 12:59:52 AM
One of the garments is a doublet in faux leather with angled corded seaming, and slashes in the panels.
I used some tailors tape to play with placement of those lines.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4459/37384753890_8787bc75e9.jpg)
I will move the side seam line forward
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4468/37384751270_ce48a97f8e.jpg)
the yoke area extends into the top of the sleeve, so sleeve manipulation is in my future.

The other garment has to be quilted. It consists of a jerkin (sleeveless) and a set of quilted sleeves that are attached to a separate under bodice. At times he wears just the jerkin, other times the jerkin with under bodice and sleeves and other times the black faux leather doublet over the sleeveless quilted jerkin.
So the quilted look has to be developed first.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: Schneiderfrei on October 18, 2017, 10:26:28 AM
Fantastic! Thanks for letting us look in.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 18, 2017, 12:24:28 PM
Waiting for fabric to arrive.
I will have to do a quilting sample.
Preliminary quilting/thinking lines. The darts in the base fabric will be as usual, but the fashion fabric layer will have the dart transferred to align with one of the lines of quilting.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4499/36932482884_92b60ef578.jpg)

I need to know the button size, for the overlap, and I have to figure out the best way to construct and finish the garment. There will be lacing on the sides, and I am going to have a separate lacing panel sewn on and that will be a good spot for leaving seam allowance for alterations (bigger or smaller)
The neckline and armholes, I am planning on binding with bias.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 18, 2017, 12:38:11 PM
All the quilting lines need to be first drawn out on paper, then drawn onto the inside of the base fabric.
After I do a quilting sample, the next step will be to baste the batting in place, -over a ham- then lay the fashion fabric on top and figure out the best way to baste it in place or quilting.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4505/37697197596_d6e850c3f0.jpg)
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: pfaff260 on October 18, 2017, 04:11:38 PM
Thank you. Love to see the end result.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 25, 2017, 12:31:41 AM
Of course the fabric arrived on the day I had another project that needs to be cut out, so updates on this project may be spread out over a longer time than expected.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4469/24049240218_7000a07fa4.jpg)
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on October 31, 2017, 12:52:11 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4483/37330769614_4813cbc6ba.jpg)
Asymmetrical leather yoke, waist seam and panel seams in the back. A lot going on but that seems to be what they want.

In process, should be done mid week, then I can return to the original topic of this thread.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: hutch-- on October 31, 2017, 12:26:36 PM
What is this piece, I cannot tell if its a coat or a dress.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: posaune on October 31, 2017, 09:31:27 PM
oho - the red lining looks bold!
You have such an interesting job.
Lg posaune
If you can spend some time, could you please please show a pic how you did the "meeting" from waist seam and skirt panels in the back  with the lining. I had some difficulties there with my "Gehrock". It nearly wrecked my brain.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on November 01, 2017, 10:43:06 PM
It is a jacket.
Posaune, i will take photos before I pack it up today.
It was unusual because the designer wanted a horizontal seam across all the back pieces, as well as vertical panel seams.
It made it more of a challenge and I dont think adds to the design. But my job is to do what is asked, although I did try to talk them out of it.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on November 02, 2017, 09:07:37 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4508/24246246828_17cb8bbc5a.jpg)

I am sending it unfinished so they can fit it and trim the leather to whatever shape the designer de ides he likes. They will finish body and sleeve hems and do whatever alterations may be necessary.
I hope it fits.
Again, I did not measure the guy, just got numbers and photos and a "test jacket" that was not the style they wanted but I was supposed to reference.
The worst, in my opinion, was I had no direct contact with the designer. That part is unusual.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on November 02, 2017, 09:24:43 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4447/37389695884_4eacd77167.jpg)

Here is the back with a step vent.
Normally there would not be a horizontal seam at the back waist with a step vent but the designer wanted it.

Usually a feature on tailcoats frock coats and some period sack coats, a step vent requires the left back portion of the vent  to extend past the centre back seam. The "step" seam allowance needs to be clipped to allow this to happen.
I never clip the other side (right back of body)  because I think it becomes too weak. So the cb seam allowance is pressed open in the upper back, but the seam allowances are pressed all to the left at the area of the step.
I think there is a picture on my blog somewhere.
The lining is traditionally cut in one piece and carefully clipped and finished around the vent. It is fiddly and can go wrong easily. So now I cut a horizontal seam in the lining at the step vent. The lower lining can be put in by machine, and it is much easier to then just close the lining between the body and the tail by hand.
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on November 02, 2017, 09:26:46 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4494/38098345951_9d7f1dbca8.jpg)

Inside lining
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: posaune on November 02, 2017, 08:12:01 PM
Wow Terri. Thank you very much. That looks very tidy and clean.
Wonderful.
I did the lining with a waist seam. My difficulties were mainly with the overlap of the step vent
lg
posaune
Title: Re: The challenge- drafting for people you have not measured.
Post by: TTailor on November 13, 2017, 11:01:53 PM
Another delay, to the original project. It is unusual to have a long deadline in my business, and the costume is not needed until March 2018.
An opportunity came up, so I am away working in Montreal for a month.
I believe the show will be set in 1660, so breeches and doublets look to be in my future.
Cheers!