Author Topic: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.  (Read 2901 times)

Schneiderfrei

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Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« on: April 17, 2016, 10:42:12 AM »
Is it really additional?  The T&C modern draft also angles straight from the neck point and dips in the part closer to the neck point rather than angling out and then dipping away.  The amount of cloth could be a moot point.

Is it aiming at a different contour for the shoulder seam?  I've forgotten the name that celebrated 60's shoulder line was called.  It sort of tapered the opposite way.

TTailor

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2016, 01:50:30 PM »
I wouldn't call it additional fabric, it is just a variation of the shoulder seam placement. If I understand you correctly.
Shoulder seam placement going back to the early tailoring of the 19th century was set quite far to the back and over time the shoulder seam has moved up towards being on the shoulder. The T&C drafts of mid century are still set slightly to the back. Its not wrong just different.

is that what you are asking?


pfaff260

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2016, 03:16:29 PM »

Schneiderfrei

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2016, 04:46:18 PM »
Thanks Pfaff260,

I just couldn't bring to the fingertips :)

But do you think that would be the effect of that cut?  With perhaps a consideration for a shoulder-pad toward the outer shoulder seam.

G

Greger

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2016, 05:19:38 PM »
I was told, and think this is good, that the less seams showing the better. Therefore, when facing the person, no shoulder seams showing. Others think the seam should be directly on top. Then there are those who think it should be slightly in front. A few think it should criss cross one way or the other. Maybe all that matters is satisfying the customer.

Henry Hall

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2016, 08:30:23 PM »
I wouldn't call it additional fabric, it is just a variation of the shoulder seam placement. If I understand you correctly.
Shoulder seam placement going back to the early tailoring of the 19th century was set quite far to the back and over time the shoulder seam has moved up towards being on the shoulder. The T&C drafts of mid century are still set slightly to the back. Its not wrong just different.

is that what you are asking?

When reading this thread I was comparing this 1970 draft with the one that was posted alongside it at C&T - the 1969 3-button sports jacket - which also has a downward curve of the front shoulder similar to the older drafts. It also has a less easy scye, which is not the case for the 1970 draft. 
It is (if I'm not misguided) more on the front shoulder and a pronounced slope to the shoulder on the back of the draft, which produces the back-angled shoulder seam?

In any case I'm not contradicting anything you say, just wondering about shoulder seams and armscye shape and ease in general. This photo of Jim's initial muslin of the 1970 draft shows the shoulder seam sewn and it is pretty much normal without a shoulder pad. No particular excess of cloth really.

TTailor

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2016, 09:53:02 PM »
The other thing about the drawn lines for the shoulders is they hollow out the back shoulder line, and it also has ease in it, so it is longer than the front shoulder.
As you ease any straight line in, it develops a hollowness, so ease in combination with a drawn hollow line, makes the shape even more hollowed out. They tend to compensate that with a bowing out of the front shoulder.

One of the things that isn't mentioned is the more ease you try to get in the back shoulder seam the more bowed it should become, because a more prominent blade requires the length.
If for instance you need to sew a dart instead of easing the line in, you will see how that is needed.
There used to be a few excellent pictures on the old C&T site of a German text that showeed correct and incorrect placements of shoulder darts in men's suits.

I think with a true pagoda shoulder you would see a bit more shaping at the end of the shoulder, but i guess it would depend on many things- the shoulder of the person, how much padding you want to have and how extremely obvious you want the final silhouette.

TTailor

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2016, 10:03:27 PM »
Quote
It is (if I'm not misguided) more on the front shoulder and a pronounced slope to the shoulder on the back of the draft, which produces the back-angled shoulder seam?

In any case I'm not contradicting anything you say, just wondering about shoulder seams and armscye shape and ease in general. This photo of Jim's initial muslin of the 1970 draft shows the shoulder seam sewn and it is pretty much normal without a shoulder pad. No particular excess of cloth really.

In period tailoring, the neck point is set quite crooked and yes, the extra fabric is on the front shoulder, the back has a more pronounced slope. In fact on some drafts the front shoulder is on the straight cross grain, the back then is quite bias"y" ( is that a word?)
On a period coat, If you think of the back shoulder needing to be eased in, (and imagine a larger dart for a moment, rather than ease - due to a closer to the body fit and less shoulder padding) you can see that the front shoulder seam wraps over the shoulder and would cut across that "dart" further down on the dart, where the dart take up is smaller.
It quite interesting to play with how all that works if you have a men's stand or a patient friend!

 

Greger

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2016, 01:02:02 AM »
Sometimes the back shoulder dart is put in, lets say for fun, by dividing it up into two or three smaller ones. Customers sometimes want talking points with their peers. A patterned cloth, either by weave or colors, this might be a detail for you and the customer to play with.

crazy1503

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2016, 07:08:26 PM »
Today i preshrunk and ironed some medium weight horsehair canvas i just bought from bias bespoke - the water i soaked it in went light brown and when i ironed the canvas it stunk to high heaven - like a piggery. This is the first time i have used a hymo, is that normal??

TTailor

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Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2016, 08:56:19 PM »
Hymo with animal hair content will have an odour, yes.
Wouldn't say it smells like a piggery though - if you've never been in a pig barn you wouldn't realize how truly pungent that is- but to me it smells sometimes horsey, even if it has goat hair content.

crazy1503

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2016, 10:15:17 AM »
This stuff stunk really bad - my parents owned a piggery when I was young so I know what you mean. Id say it was a mix between light piggery and urine smell. I couldnt have my head over the iron while pressing it, I was going to be sick. Thankfully it was in my workshop, Id hate to have tried pressing it at home, my whole house would have been stunk out. Horsey smell would have been fine, I dont mind horses!
I might soak it again with a little dishsoap. What worries me is the smell coming through when pressing the coat, and making the finished coat smell bad.

Henry Hall

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2016, 10:20:45 AM »
If it's as bad as you say, that's very odd. I've had the 'wet wool' smell and normal smell of heated hair, but nothing reminiscent of a full-on farmyard.

The only time I've had a really bad odour was with some stiff, unbleached cotton. After soaking it the impurities being released and heated by the iron was a rough smell. I just bleached the lot.

Greger

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2016, 01:29:49 PM »
Time to get your money back.
Not a place I would buy from again.
I wouldn't put it in any clothes. 
Send it back,  or the dump.

crazy1503

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Re: Re: Tailor & Cutter Modern Suit Jacket Draft - Discussion.
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2016, 05:12:15 PM »
I had a look at my order again and it isnt actually horsehair - its described as "horsehair-like". the black threads are nylon, and it also includes cotton and wool. Ill have another go at cleaning it and see if it improves - sending anything back from Australia is a costly exercise.