Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Historical And Period Costumes => Costumers Forum => Topic started by: LeiaOrgana2187 on January 11, 2018, 02:17:56 AM

Title: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: LeiaOrgana2187 on January 11, 2018, 02:17:56 AM
Just wandering on the tinterwebs and found this preview for a tailoring book...


(https://s14.postimg.org/soronvqfx/1905_2_Baende_Carre-_System_alte_Schnittmuster_Jugendstil_kaufen.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/soronvqfx/)

A closer look, for detail.

(https://s14.postimg.org/5by8j5a0t/closeup1.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Well... It looks like a way on how to draft a Prussian collar, but what makes it unique is that it is drafted in a similar way to a regular coat collar (or even the convertible collar for overcoats, except that this is drafted as fastened high up, closed, in the neck, rather than drafted as an open collar)

Now.... considering that I'm doing a further investigation to this obscure method to shed more light, can anyone be of help? I think some of you are familiar of this.... and a clearer picture of this can be helpful.


Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: peterle on January 11, 2018, 07:05:29 AM
This is from a pretty old book, about 1900 -1910? Looks like a military blouse to me.

This is not a prussian collar. A Prussian collar would have a high stand in the center front.
This collar has a stand that fades to nothing at the center front. Itīs more a Slipon-collar as we call it in German. I think the line W-U-c-d-W is the collar stand. The line W-a-c is the base construction line, the distance W-c being the needed neckline length.
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: posaune on January 11, 2018, 07:59:20 AM
I agree, Peterle, this collar is used on slipons ectera. It is no flat collar. The stand is integrated. The faded line is the break line (W-c). Still used today.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: LeiaOrgana2187 on January 11, 2018, 10:44:37 AM
Any clear, usable versions of a slipon draft, similar to that? I kinda assume most military uniforms prior to WW2 used slipon collars as a universal trend.

Can be extracted from vintage uniform patterns from that time....
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: peterle on January 11, 2018, 10:41:30 PM
Looking it up in the Mueller book I found out it is called a "hochgeschlossener Rundkragen" (= high closed round collar). A slipon collar  is very similar but would have a very short revers.
 There is everything you need in the scetch:
Draw a straight line starting at W, distance from U will be the stand width (~2,5cm). Length is back neck line+front neck line(c).
Draw the curved line through U to c.
Draw a perpendicular center back  line to this curved line. To the left mark the stand width, to the right mark the collar fall width (about 5cm).
Draw the rest of the collar according to the scetch, the (perpendicular) width at W will be about 7,5-8cm.

I think this collar will be quite straight and will need quite a bit of ironwork, especially stretching the outer edge, to achieve the round shape that is needed.
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: LeiaOrgana2187 on January 12, 2018, 12:29:40 AM
(https://s14.postimg.org/5by8j5a0t/closeup1.png)

Considering the diagram there, is the distance from point a to point c equal to the value of the Hals[loch]speigel (back neck width)?

And what about the distance from point a to point U? Is it equal to the crease measure of a typical lounge coat (usually 2.5 cm)?

And also, is the "front neck line" you said refers to the value of Halsspegiel+2?
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: posaune on January 12, 2018, 01:50:14 AM
you controll the outer seam with the angle d to C. If you make it larger or smaller the outseam will follow. But anyway you have to make a sample.
To be correct : you have to measure both front and back neckhole. (the Hs is only the basis of the neckhole and this another system) The neckhole will be cut maybe a bit larger.
But to make it short: This is the Carré System  founded about 1880?? See the small back neckhole and the slanted back shoulder. The drawing give you an idea how to do it. But I suggest to take a modern draft.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: LeiaOrgana2187 on January 12, 2018, 11:08:41 AM
Yup. This is the Carré System.

And also, this is what I meant for where to get the measurements for the distance between point W to point c is from the lined I highlighted here (in dark green):



(https://s10.postimg.org/4xxp7b2dx/2018-01-12_07.57.55.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4xxp7b2dx/)

So... anyone has a clearer, usable version of this Carré system draft for a military blouse, that features this collar?

I'm sure someone owned a book about this....
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: pfaff260 on January 12, 2018, 05:45:36 PM
Is this what you are looking for?
(https://s14.postimg.org/gjlrz3fyl/Schermafbeelding_2018-01-12_om_07.44.06.png) (https://postimg.org/image/gjlrz3fyl/)

(https://s14.postimg.org/p1v83g9ml/Schermafbeelding_2018-01-12_om_07.43.45.png) (https://postimg.org/image/p1v83g9ml/)
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: LeiaOrgana2187 on January 12, 2018, 08:29:01 PM
Yeah..... (almost, in terms of measures), but thanks you anyway.  ;D

I think there is a closed neck blouse version of that...
Since I believe this...

(https://s17.postimg.org/m5ejh1z3f/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/m5ejh1z3f/)

...belongs to the same book as that...
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: peterle on January 12, 2018, 10:50:25 PM
As I wrote, the distance W-c is the back neck line plus front neck line, not the Halsspiegel.
This is W-H plus H1-H3 in your pic. Reduce for 2 shoulder SAs when you darfted the coat with Sas.

Pfaff260īs drat is for an overcoat. You canīt take this measurements for the blouse wich is worn without something underneath. It would be too high and too large.
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: posaune on January 13, 2018, 12:54:51 AM
Pfaff's pages are a lot later than what Leia showed. the draft looks even modern
I have a book from Rudolf Mauerer from 1931  here. he drafts the collar like this (a simple angled draft).

hope it helps
lg posaune
The neck depends on the Oberweite (bustwidth) and the kurze Taille (Back length)
V-U = 1/8 of Bust, V-W =1/16 of Bust
c-G = Hinterteilsbreite par example for bust width 100 cm = 7 cm , G-H = 2cm. Where C is located from A is complicated.
It is a compilcated system but I think it works well especially with corpulent drafts
(https://s18.postimg.org/hbky9d6mt/collar_carresystem_1931.png) (https://postimg.org/image/hbky9d6mt/)
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: LeiaOrgana2187 on January 15, 2018, 12:46:53 AM
Hmm... any further examples (especially military blouses) for further comparison and study?
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: peterle on January 15, 2018, 01:51:57 AM
Best study is to make a few different examples using different stand widths, curve diameters and widths. Making them in paper is enough to get an impression. You will have to do it anyway when making a specific garment.
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: pfaff260 on January 15, 2018, 06:11:37 PM
To right my wrong, here is the jacket.
Posaune, you are wright, this is from the 30's
(https://s14.postimg.org/6djlzabjh/Schermafbeelding_2018-01-15_om_08.06.26.png) (https://postimg.org/image/6djlzabjh/)

(https://s14.postimg.org/vjkk64kjh/Schermafbeelding_2018-01-15_om_08.06.38.png) (https://postimg.org/image/vjkk64kjh/)

(https://s14.postimg.org/hd4tawhe5/Schermafbeelding_2018-01-15_om_08.06.52.png) (https://postimg.org/image/hd4tawhe5/)
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: LeiaOrgana2187 on February 15, 2018, 01:03:36 AM
To right my wrong, here is the jacket.
Posaune, you are wright, this is from the 30's
(https://s14.postimg.org/6djlzabjh/Schermafbeelding_2018-01-15_om_08.06.26.png) (https://postimg.org/image/6djlzabjh/)

(https://s14.postimg.org/vjkk64kjh/Schermafbeelding_2018-01-15_om_08.06.38.png) (https://postimg.org/image/vjkk64kjh/)

(https://s14.postimg.org/hd4tawhe5/Schermafbeelding_2018-01-15_om_08.06.52.png) (https://postimg.org/image/hd4tawhe5/)

For this diagram....


(https://s14.postimg.org/vjkk64kjh/Schermafbeelding_2018-01-15_om_08.06.38.png) (https://postimg.org/image/vjkk64kjh/)

Is the collar here a turn-down like a shirt collar leaf or Prussian collar, or a stand up one like a Mandarin collar... from what I know, a Waffenrock collar looks like shirt style collar...
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: posaune on February 15, 2018, 08:15:08 AM
PLush I should have read the text! Thank you Peter.
This collar needs no dressing too.
lg
Posaune
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: peterle on February 15, 2018, 08:31:45 PM
As you can read in the section "der Kragen" this collar is a turn down collar.

b-b1-a2-a1-b is the collar stand. Itīs 3,5cm wide in the front and 4,5 cm in the back.
b-b1-a3-a4-b is the turn down part. Itīs 6,3cm in the front and 4,8cm in the back.

Stand and fall are seperate pieces.
Title: Re: Interesting form of collar construction.... Any clearer versions?
Post by: LeiaOrgana2187 on February 15, 2018, 11:01:16 PM
 I was expecting something like this if a Waffenrock is assembled... (sorry if the ill symbol is there; I'll replace it with a censored one later)

(https://s13.postimg.org/thscgbt2r/RAD-25_Rundschau-2_1940_new_tunic_and_litewka.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/thscgbt2r/)
 ;)

While I feel the pattern shown here would end up with like this:
(https://ww2onlineshop.com/image/cache/data/german-wwi-uniforms/1gu002-german-wwi-bavarian-die-litewka-infantry-officer-tunic-1-450x600.jpg)

(https://ww2onlineshop.com/image/cache/data/german-wwi-uniforms/1gu002-german-wwi-bavarian-die-litewka-infantry-officer-tunic-5-450x600.jpg)

(https://ww2onlineshop.com/image/cache/data/german-wwi-uniforms/1gu002-german-wwi-bavarian-die-litewka-infantry-officer-tunic-3-450x600.jpg)